Cipro not killing bjd

[Kzang]

Thank you. I looked it up, and it seems easy enough. Do you have a recommendation for sourcing amoxicillin?

You'd have to illegally get it. Looks like they banned Chewy from selling cipro without a prescription now too. You could get it from the med kit from KFC corals website while they still have it in stock.

 

[WrasseyReefer]

You'd have to illegally get it. Looks like they banned Chewy from selling cipro without a prescription now too. You could get it from the med kit from KFC corals website while they still have it in stock.

Thanks. I just posted that the Cipro seems to have worked. I just needed to give it a bit more time. I’m no longer looking for amoxicillin.

 

[MnFish1]

I have what I assume is bjd in my tank. It’s effected 3 lps corals so far, a Goni, a plate, and a Galaxea. I’ve done repeated in tank treatments with Cipro 500 mg pills dissolved in 50 ml rodi, dosed at varying doses based on posts on here and multiple coral baths with Cipro. But it keeps coming back. Cipro pills are not expired. Dosing at night when display lights are off. I make sure that uv and algae lights are off before dosing and skimmer cup is removed. Any suggestions for alternative treatments or if this could be something that looks like bjd but is something else? I’ve already lost a bunch of tissue from the three corals. I’ll try to get some pictures tomorrow when lights are back on. I’ve had success with treating bjd on a hammer in the past. Lost a few heads but was able to successfully save the remaining heads with Cipro. Don’t know why it’s not working this time around. It’s possible that the bacteria are antibiotic-resistant. As a side benefit, it did kill off cyano I had in the sand and on some rocks, so it’s doing something, just not eliminating the bjd that’s killing my 3 corals. Been treating for a week+.

I understand that the use of antibiotics in the hobby is a very heated topic. I would like this thread not to turn into a debate on the use of antibiotics in the hobby. I would just really appreciate any friendly advice on how I could potentially save my corals.

Thanks for your help.

First - you need to figure out what is causing your coral to do poorly. BJD is probably a symptom - which many pathogens can cause. Second - you have to be sure that your BJD pathogen is sensitive to cipro - its not the best antibiotic if one believes that arcobacter is causal. So - I would look a little deeper into the topic.

 

[MnFish1]

Maybe. My reading is that Midland Vet isn't following the FDA approval process, which is a straightforward way to get shut down. Second is just a blanket statement about antimicrobials, but not really backed by evidence for our particular use case, to my knowledge (which may be lacking). I agree that inappropriate use is a risk for AMR, but I don't know if our use is inappropriate. Does anyone know?

Antimicrobial resistance isn't something that just happens. Environmental conditions must be met and the microbe must have a mechanism for acquiring or developing the resistance. Take syphilis which remains largely susceptible to penicillin vs. Streptococcus pneumoniae, which has been steadily increasing in resistance. Streptococci can be pass genetic information between some species in a promiscuous way which is an easy way to pass on a resistance gene from one to another--in their case, sharing is caring. The syphilis bacterium is a spirochete that doesn't have plasmids which might be a reason they haven't transferred resistance between strains as easily. What's in your fish tank is a whole world of unknown. Further, the environment has to support the need for keeping resistance genes. Maintaining resistance can be an evolutionary disadvantage if there is no need for it to survive. Take chloroquine resistance in parts of Africa, where parasites have been reverting to susceptible phenotypes after long-term cessation of chloroquine use.

So that begs what I imagine is an unstudied question. Does the amount of cipro that we put in our tanks (which is far less than you put in your body for an active infection), that is subsequently flushed and entering into the wastewater system, causing bacteria to acquire cipro resistance in order to survive?

Note, when I do in tank treatment, I am only removing a small amount of extremely diluted cipro that has been in the tank for many days and likely degraded, and carbon is off during the treatment period, but back on before a water change. I don't do cipro dips (then flush), but that could also be mitigated if proper caution were taken.

My current hypothesis that I have no plans on testing: cipro that goes from hobbyists' fish tanks into the wastewater system is inactive and so dilute that antimocrobial efficacy is nil and the wild type bacterial population persists.

Great - I'm curious why should someone take what you say for granted? This is not designed to be offensive - but rather - its totally unclear why you seem to need cipro your comment (when I do in tank treatment) ? I've been reefing for many years and have never needed cipro? Your current hypothesis is unfortunately incorrect - since it's not the cipro that goes into your waste-water thats the problem. It's the potentially resistant bacteria in your tank that eventually will go into yourself your family, and the environment. however, you want to believe you're doing the right thing - so - nothing I say will sway your belief. However your belief IMHO is not factual.

By the way - using your argument flies in the face of multiple infectious disease societies/recommendations world wide. I.e. Ok - so 1 doctor says 'in the big scheme of things, who cares if I give Little (pick a cute name here) cipro. It's only one person. Thats your argument and IMHO - it's false - which is why many antibiotics are restricted use. Perhaps you're not aware, bacteria can transmit resistance to antibiotics via plasmids - even if not exposed to the antibiotic itself.

 

[MnFish1]

You'd have to illegally get it. Looks like they banned Chewy from selling cipro without a prescription now too. You could get it from the med kit from KFC corals website while they still have it in stock.

Actually - that's not true. All you need is a veterinarians prescription - there is nothing illegal.

 

[JoJosReef]

removed to avoid misinterpretation

 

[MnFish1]

Gentamycin better? I generally assume Arcobacter is the causal agent, but that's because the only "study" I found is the post about cipro for BJD. It was a nice experiment for a hobbyist. Replication would be nice as well, but that is a tall ask given we're just hobbyists and no one is paying to do this.

Also, being sure of the causal pathogen is way more than most physicians do when they prescribe broad spectrum antibiotics. "You're cough not going away? Here, have a Z-pack just in case it's a secondary bacterial infection."

I'm not sure there is clear evidence that 1) Arcobacteria causes BJD, or 2, that Cipro is the best antibiotic.
Here is one study: https://gutpathogens.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13099-020-00360-x
Here is another: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...,to gentamicin, streptomycin and tetracycline.
And another:

Widespread Multidrug Resistance of Arcobacter butzleri Isolated from Clinical and Food Sources in Central Italy

The Arcobacter genus comprises a group of bacteria widely distributed in different habitats that can be spread throughout the food chain. Fluoroquinolones and aminoglycosides represent the most common antimicrobial agents used for the treatment of Arcobacter infections. However, the increasing...

www.mdpi.com

 

[MnFish1]

Also, being sure of the causal pathogen is way more than most physicians do when they prescribe broad spectrum antibiotics. "You're cough not going away? Here, have a Z-pack just in case it's a secondary bacterial infection."

The era of 'most physicians' prescribing an antibiotic without a culture or other strong evidence - IMHO is over (or nearly over), unless a patient is immunosuppressed or some other compelling reason.

 

[WrasseyReefer]

First - you need to figure out what is causing your coral to do poorly. BJD is probably a symptom - which many pathogens can cause. Second - you have to be sure that your BJD pathogen is sensitive to cipro - its not the best antibiotic if one believes that arcobacter is causal. So - I would look a little deeper into the topic.

Please feel free to review my additional posts in this thread for additional info that may clear up your concerns. I also provided an update that the bjd was cleared with the Cipro.

 

[Nitcrawler]

Look into the kfc dip method. Cipro plus a couple other things

 

[Nitcrawler]

KFC worked for me, so far I did it once a yr just cause.

 

[WrasseyReefer]

This thread can be closed. Cipro worked with a bit more time. No longer need help with this. Thanks everyone.

This thread was not intended to debate AMR, so please feel free to move those discussions to another thread.

 

[danreef55]

just a side note...... Consider slowly raising the PH level. The optimal range is 8.1 to 8.3 I believe. Did some quick research and there is no correlation between the PH and brown jelly. Personally, I always ran 8.2
I have been out of the hobby for a long time and still researching. Just for my edification why 8.0?
good luck I hope you find a solution and happy reefing

 

[WrasseyReefer]

just a side note...... Consider slowly raising the PH level. The optimal range is 8.1 to 8.3 I believe. Did some quick research and there is no correlation between the PH and brown jelly. Personally, I always ran 8.2
I have been out of the hobby for a long time and still researching. Just for my edification why 8.0?
good luck I hope you find a solution and happy reefing

Issue resolved. Thanks.