Ciprofloxacin discussion. (No arguing please.)

[ThRoewer]

I think @OrionN has seen what a lot of us have seen that supports the idea that there is a pathogen present with anemones that are demonstrating sick responses. Just introducing a sick anemone to a tank of healthy anemones and observing the resulting failing health of the previously healthy anemones is a direct correlation that supports the pathogen bacteria hypotheses. The same does not typically occur after introducing a treated anemone to a tank full of other healthy anemones.

I know @2Sunny you want a published paper with detailed experimental design and results, but it just doesn't exist yet as far as I know. Just citizen science, which at the moment lends a pretty strong argument toward Ciprofloxacin treatments helping more than it harms. I think we would all love to see a published paper on the topic though! And maybe one day it will be done, until then I'm going to continue treating new nems with cipro because it's the best solution at the moment for me.

There may not be much done on anemones but there is plenty of research done on corals and the plot thickens that stressed corals are vulnerable to infections.

As for anemones - If you consider how they are shipped - in a relatively small bag - and that it may take 2 solid days or even more between the moment they are packed at the collection facility and finally unpacked at the importer, it is a miracle that not all arrive sick. Often they sit in their own filth for most of that period.

I think the reason why giganteas are more prone to these infections is that, as animals of the tidal zone, they are used to higher oxygen levels and during shipping they may suffer under oxygen depletion, especially if bacteria blooms occur and consume oxygen as well.

I will definitely continue to treat sick anemones as this has so far - despite a few recent setbacks - worked quite well for me. Even "easy" anemones like BTAs will sometimes need it and I brought a bunch of them back to health with Cipro.
The one antibiotic I would not recommend for anemones is Septra. So far I had not a single success with that one. It is however often a good choice to rescue freshly imported sick anemonefish.

 

[ThRoewer]

...When using Cipro, one of the side effects is bleaching...

In my experience only with some anemones (regardless of species) and generally with newly imported that are very sick.

 

[D-Nak]

In my experience only with some anemones (regardless of species) and generally with newly imported that are very sick.

I agree. Regarding newly imported specimens, I'm guessing that it has to do with how long an anemone has been in transport (I know that AC now direct ships their nems so they don't sit in import/wholesale facilities) . Less time = less dead/expelled zoox = more bleaching. In other words, the nem doesn't have time to bleach on its own so when treated with Cipro, there's more zoox to expel.

Again, the correlation between zoox and the pathogen is my hypothesis, so other factors may definitely be at play.

 

[OrionN]

I found an old Picture of my Magnifica on 2/16/2003. He was splitting, but not able to complete it and I have to help him along. Because I was helping, I posted this on Reefland.com which was where I recovered the photo.

 

[andrewey]

I don't want to derail this thread, but I've been trying to research it and I haven't been able to find any published answers- is there a particular reason a fluoroquinolone, particularly cipro is the agent being utilized to treat anemones?

 

[OrionN]

I don't want to derail this thread, but I've been trying to research it and I haven't been able to find any published answers- is there a particular reason a fluoroquinolone, particularly cipro is the agent being utilized to treat anemones?

It was I who selected Cipro (brand name of ciprofloxacin) and Septra (brand name of sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim combination).

You won't find any publish data becasue I did not publish any other than on several reef keeping bulletining boards, mainly ReefCentral.com. I choose ciprofloxacin due to the spectrum of the antibiotic, cheap, readily available, and my guess of the marine pathogen guided by marine pathogen for human. I wrote at the time that what infected human is not the same as what infected anemones but we need to start somewhere. I did not have the money, or the number of sick anemones to do cultures to guide treatment. It would cost me about 100.00 to do each of the culture.
Once I decided on ciprofloxacin, I find that it was very effective so I did not try anything else. I also tried trim/sulfa combination at the same time, find that it was less effective so I recommended it as last ditch if ciprofloxacin fail.

There you have it. That is why Cipro was used by many reefers to treat sick anemones.

 

[andrewey]

@OrionN - Thanks for the answer. I appreciate it!

 

[ThRoewer]

A store owner told me that he treated many anemones successfully with Amoxicillin.
I haven't tried it myself yet, though I probably should have used that rather than Septra with my Maldives magnifica. It tolerated Cipro quite well but didn't improve beyond a certain point so I decided to switch antibiotics in case the pathogen had developed resistance to Cipro. However, the anemone reacted extremely poorly to Septra, expelled most of its symbiotic algae, and went mush before the Septra treatment finished.
In my experience, Septra is rather the one harmful to anemones, not Cipro.

 

[OrionN]

Amoxicillin, IMO has narrow spectrum so I did not try it. However if it work then it work. I hope somebody try it and report on how well it work. I alway think that “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” so I never try anything much past Cipro.

 

[ThRoewer]

@OrionN, do you have any hunch on what bacterium may be responsible for the infections?
In corals, Vibrio strains have been linked to diseases and die-offs.
A Vibrio strain would, in my opinion, also be plausible as the cause of the anemone disease.

 

[OrionN]

I think it is one of the Gram neg like Vibrio or Hydromonas. Of course there are more than one pathogen so sometime one antibiotic work while another work at other time.

 

[Brent Bohannon]

Good read. I have a gig on order and wanted to read all I can about care. I'm surprised I haven't found a primer somewhere. Here is a thought that came to mind while reading this thread. Has anyone considered that Cipro might have an effect similar to chemo therapy?

As stated previously, Cipro appears to benefit the anemone but will harm it if the dosage is too high. I think that has something to do with dinoflagellate (zooxanthellae) sensitivity to higher concentrations of antibiotics. I believe Orion said that he did not do any cultures or specific testing to determine the dosage. I also do not think there is any knowledge about Cipro toxicity for anemones. I don't claim to know anything about the proper dosage for Cipro but it could be doing one of two things.

1) Killing off problematic bacteria to increase the health of zooanthellae. Certainly a possibility. Just like humans, I would imagine that anemones are host to all sorts of harmful bacteria to them. Just like us, they stay healthy and are unaffected by them until they are plucked and shipped. At that point their immune systems dips and they get sick.

2) Killing off the excess zooxanthellae and saving the anemone from the energetic effort of expelling it. If the Cipro is doing all the work, then the anemone conserves more energy for recovery. That would explain how some anemones survived after multiple expulsions of zoo and others faded away (Untreated by Cipro). It would also explain why Cipro is so effective in helping with acclimating an anemone.

Maybe the therapeutic dosage for transit and light acclimation we are trying to achieve is actually slightly toxic to the zooxanthellae. Not enough to eradicate it, but just enough to knock some of the weaker ones out. Just a thought. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

 

[Cell]

This has turned into a pretty amazing thread with some of the most knowledgeable nem keepers on R2R.

 

[Anthony Scholfield]

For those looking, just bought some here

Aqua-Cipro (Ciprofloxacin)

Aqua-Cipro (Ciprofloxacin)

www.allivet.com

 

[tundraguy1106]

Thinking about treating my whole tank for a bacterial infection on LPS (BJD). Can’t seem to keep them alive longer than a month. Any adverse affects on other tank inhabitants (shrimp snails, urchins)?

 

[Eagle_Steve]

Thinking about treating my whole tank for a bacterial infection on LPS (BJD). Can’t seem to keep them alive longer than a month. Any adverse affects on other tank inhabitants (shrimp snails, urchins)?

Here is agood read about BJD and dosing cipro to fully stocked reef tanks.

Experimenting with in-tank antibiotic treatments for Brown Jelly Disease

Brown Jelly Disease (BJD) is an issue many reefers have run into. Like most coral diseases, the pathogen causing BJD has not been conclusively determined. Here I will share some observations and test results supporting the idea that its caused by a bacterial pathogen, and so may be treatable...

www.reef2reef.com