CIPROFLOXACIN: IN CURING ANEMONES.

[EmdeReef]

Sorry. Google Kochs postulates and see how it works. in case you dont want to do that here is the definition: Koch's postulates are as follows: The bacteria must be present in every case of the disease. The bacteria must be isolated from the host with the disease and grown in pure culture. The specific disease must be reproduced when a pure culture of the bacteria is inoculated into a healthy susceptible host.

So. before you go recommending that a certain 'disease' (which we aren't even sure exists - i.e. every 'unhealthy appearing anemone') be treated with an antibiotic (that normally requires a prescription from a person with an advanced degree) at least in humans - I suggest that you do a bit of research

Well a PhD in biology doesn’t teach that so appreciate for enlightening me...

 

[Christopher Davis]

Well a PhD in biology doesn’t teach that so appreciate for enlightening me...

Let’s get back to the actual purpose of this thread. If it’s worked for you, post it if it hasn’t post it. Cut the bs and let’s talks numbers and cases.

 

[Taylor t]

I'm no scientist, just a hobbyist. Of my last 12 gigs I've gotten my hands on, back in 2013-2014, I'm 12 for 12 success with cipro treatments. I still have 7 of them today, sold 4, and gave one away after 2 years. Those are the last ones I've tried to treat. For me, I've killed dozens of gigs before this, with no meds. Sickness does transfer. 100,% certainty for me that cipro works, although I see plenty of mistakes made from many people in HOW then administer treatment. How you make your water matters. To argue cipro doesn't work is ignorance.

 

[salty joe]

TT, What concentration of cipro do you use?
Also, do you use an air driven filter or powerhead?

Nice try CristopherDavis.

 

[gig 'em]

I'm no scientist, just a hobbyist. Of my last 12 gigs I've gotten my hands on, back in 2013-2014, I'm 12 for 12 success with cipro treatments. I still have 7 of them today, sold 4, and gave one away after 2 years. Those are the last ones I've tried to treat. For me, I've killed dozens of gigs before this, with no meds. Sickness does transfer. 100,% certainty for me that cipro works, although I see plenty of mistakes made from many people in HOW then administer treatment. How you make your water matters. To argue cipro doesn't work is ignorance.

I agree, the water used during the treatment process matters a lot too. I'm curious Taylor, what was your exact routine with water changes and antibiotic additions. I think the process is just as key to the tools here.

I also agree with others on this thread that shotgunning antibiotics isn't always the answer. I theorize that some anemone deaths are due to poor health from shipping and viral infections. Antibiotics are useless against viral infections, and there's not much we can do if it is a virus. I've personally wondered if adding cipro doesn't cure the anemone of bacteria inside, but maybe suppresses bacterial populations around it that could be causing the decline in health. It's really tough to say, and as hobbyists we unfortunately don't have access to good equipment and funds to conduct experiments to determine pathogenic bacteria species or viruses.

I AM inclined to say it is something biological a lot of the time. The reason I say this is the fact that anemones will be fine for days, weeks, even months after shipping and then the open mouth/deflating cycle will start. IMO if it was poor health from shipping, they would have declined right after acquiring them. The logical explanation in this case is the anemone has succumb to some sort of sickness or infection. Thoughts?

 

[MnFish1]

There would be very little difference between online or brick and mortar stores unless you had some sort of a reliable guarantee of longevity of a specimen in question in its captive environment.

Unfortunately, most carpet anemones don’t survive more than 3-5weeks in captivity for many reasons we don’t understand. Every time we buy one we take a gamble of whether the specimen in question is in its 1st;2nd or 5th week of captive lifespan...

IMHO, the difference between a brick and mortar store and an online source is that the shipping overnight is much more stressful than lets say a 30 minute drive in a car both from a temperature as well as chemical standpoint. So - if I wanted to buy another anemone I would make sure I had observed it for several weeks in a tank before purchasing it. That said, if (as you say above) most carpet anemones dont survive more than 3-5 weeks for reasons we don't understand (I assume this is with or without cipro) - what is the reason for using cipro? Perhaps the best idea is to not try to keep these animals until the issues are better understood (which is what some people recommend).

I would say you need to read through the post (I.e. best available facts) before making conclusion that it was a mysterious viral infection.

I did read it - I was responding to someone else who mentioned that it could be a bacterial or viral infection - that no one knows. I was only saying the cipro isn't effective against viruses.

The anemone was responding well to treatment but for a coupe of mishaps I.e a pump and heater failures.

Its possible that it was responding to treatment - Its also possible that it was just getting well on its own (ie was stressed - and was going to recover without cipro).

Your option appears to be to try nothing as almost nobody will be able to properly diagnose an anemone, and again you are entitled to your opinion...good luck!

I never said it was best to do nothing. I was only pointing out that the symptoms may have resolved on their own. At least in this case - cipro didnt help - (agree that there were other issues involved - heater, etc). But - Since (according to the poll above), more people don't use cipro (or have never heard about it) than those that do - I'm not sure that its necessary.

FWIW - I have also had anemone's who appeared similar to the OP's - and spontaneously looked normal a day later (anemones that were stable and doing well in a stable tank). I dont keep them any more because they grow to a large size and tend to eat fish. Keeping a Carpet anemone in a small aquarium is like keeping a tang in a small aquarium.

Thanks for discussing it you have many interesting and valid points. On a lighter note here is a picture of mine (which is taking up 1/2 of a 4 foot tank)

 

[MnFish1]

I AM inclined to say it is something biological a lot of the time. The reason I say this is the fact that anemones will be fine for days, weeks, even months after shipping and then the open mouth/deflating cycle will start. IMO if it was poor health from shipping, they would have declined right after acquiring them. The logical explanation in this case is the anemone has succumb to some sort of sickness or infection. Thoughts?

My thought (because its happened to me) is that a sudden change in water conditions causes a problem in the tank (a heater that gets too hot, a power outage causing ammonia, a toxin, etc). whether the 'stress' or 'damage' leads to a bacterial infection or something else is unclear.

 

[Taylor t]

I used 250 mg tab in 10 gallons. I agree with the water being a HUGE factor, in the beginning. They can look fine for a week or month in your tank, you may not realize or know it, but the tank MAY NOT BE A SUITABLE TANK FOR ANEMONE SUCCESS, or may need a small adjustment. If it too new, or out of balance, DT may have too much or too little x,y,or z.... IME, carpets can take a month to a year to fully acclimate, not all the same. I used a HOB skilter (just a HOB with a surface skimmer) to surface skim the surface protein in TT with an air stone in the back of the skilter. I kept a filter sponge in the dark part of my sump that fits my HOB to collect the floaties the anemone releases, and only rinse it in DT water every water change. I changed 100% every evening before lights out, and add meds at lights out. In the beginning, 2 changes a day MAY be needed. THEN, I make my water for the next day. This step I believe is critical. Water must be consistent - aerated and aged 24 hours. You want the water used to be 24-48 hours old, so all the chemical reactions that happen in the new water are the same value, not given more or less time to complete their reactions, or start new reactions. This is the easiest way to be sure of consistency. Pull off a storage tank may be fine for some, and not others. Light and flow are critical too. Too much light is worse than not enough, IN THE BEGINNING, but weeks later comes a time when it MUST get ramped up, slowly ramping to insane intensity. Higher flow in the beginning is better, they are bags of water that may need help flushing. I would ramp up the light hourly on day one until I found the point of collapse, then back down a bit. When they collapse in treatment I would make a change to encourage inflation. 100% inflation 100% of time is goal, when they deflate I don't stand by and wait, change flow, light, or water. Each situation is different.

I believe there are some that could recover with the water exchanges only, no meds. Looks to me like everyone puts their hope in meds only, and not a strict flushing / treatment process / visual indications. Stability and consistency in the process is key. I have only tried a couple haddoni, for me haddoni do not respond near as well as gigs. But for me, if I was to purchase more gigs, I would proactively treat every gig I got, I've lost too many adding one that wasn't treated. Whatever is going on, it can spread.

Chris Davis, I'm sad to see you lost your blue carpet. Just my opinion, and I could be wrong, but my best guess as to what happened to yours is too much light combined with a water chemistry it didn't acclimate well to. I know some do have success with haddoni and Cipro, but I never had good results. For your blue carpet to look so good on day one and go downhill how it did leads me to believe it was originally healthy and degraded from water quality, combined with too much light (light shock) right away. I would have tried a flush. No disrespect, everyone's water gets off a little bit from time to time. I know, everything in your tank is doing well, but it may not have agreed with a carpet, they seem to like aged (almost dirty) systems the best, with algae. Anemone may need the very food people try to strip out of the water to avoid algae growth, who knows. SOME SPS systems may be a bit too clean, some may be fine for a carpet. When my sps die, my carpets do amazingly well, flip side when my carpets do poor my sps seem to grow best. I don't get it. If I was in your shoes, that was a perfect candidate to go through a placebo treatment, meaning go through the 100% water change schedule with no meds. Just what I would have tried seeing the progression you posted. Some anemone come in you just can't save no matter how hard you try, but gosh that guy sure looked good in the beginning. Sorry you lost that guy. Better luck next time, that's the fun of the hobby. Enjoy it! Try again!

 

[Christopher Davis]

I used 250 mg tab in 10 gallons. I agree with the water being a HUGE factor, in the beginning. They can look fine for a week or month in your tank, you may not realize or know it, but the tank MAY NOT BE A SUITABLE TANK FOR ANEMONE SUCCESS, or may need a small adjustment. If it too new, or out of balance, DT may have too much or too little x,y,or z.... IME, carpets can take a month to a year to fully acclimate, not all the same. I used a HOB skilter (just a HOB with a surface skimmer) to surface skim the surface protein in TT with an air stone in the back of the skilter. I kept a filter sponge in the dark part of my sump that fits my HOB to collect the floaties the anemone releases, and only rinse it in DT water every water change. I changed 100% every evening before lights out, and add meds at lights out. In the beginning, 2 changes a day MAY be needed. THEN, I make my water for the next day. This step I believe is critical. Water must be consistent - aerated and aged 24 hours. You want the water used to be 24-48 hours old, so all the chemical reactions that happen in the new water are the same value, not given more or less time to complete their reactions, or start new reactions. This is the easiest way to be sure of consistency. Pull off a storage tank may be fine for some, and not others. Light and flow are critical too. Too much light is worse than not enough, IN THE BEGINNING, but weeks later comes a time when it MUST get ramped up, slowly ramping to insane intensity. Higher flow in the beginning is better, they are bags of water that may need help flushing. I would ramp up the light hourly on day one until I found the point of collapse, then back down a bit. When they collapse in treatment I would make a change to encourage inflation. 100% inflation 100% of time is goal, when they deflate I don't stand by and wait, change flow, light, or water. Each situation is different.

I believe there are some that could recover with the water exchanges only, no meds. Looks to me like everyone puts their hope in meds only, and not a strict flushing / treatment process / visual indications. Stability and consistency in the process is key. I have only tried a couple haddoni, for me haddoni do not respond near as well as gigs. But for me, if I was to purchase more gigs, I would proactively treat every gig I got, I've lost too many adding one that wasn't treated. Whatever is going on, it can spread.

Chris Davis, I'm sad to see you lost your blue carpet. Just my opinion, and I could be wrong, but my best guess as to what happened to yours is too much light combined with a water chemistry it didn't acclimate well to. I know some do have success with haddoni and Cipro, but I never had good results. For your blue carpet to look so good on day one and go downhill how it did leads me to believe it was originally healthy and degraded from water quality, combined with too much light (light shock) right away. I would have tried a flush. No disrespect, everyone's water gets off a little bit from time to time. I know, everything in your tank is doing well, but it may not have agreed with a carpet, they seem to like aged (almost dirty) systems the best, with algae. Anemone may need the very food people try to strip out of the water to avoid algae growth, who knows. SOME SPS systems may be a bit too clean, some may be fine for a carpet. When my sps die, my carpets do amazingly well, flip side when my carpets do poor my sps seem to grow best. I don't get it. If I was in your shoes, that was a perfect candidate to go through a placebo treatment, meaning go through the 100% water change schedule with no meds. Just what I would have tried seeing the progression you posted. Some anemone come in you just can't save no matter how hard you try, but gosh that guy sure looked good in the beginning. Sorry you lost that guy. Better luck next time, that's the fun of the hobby. Enjoy it! Try again!

Agreed however my system is as stable as it gets, dosers for consisitancy and an ATO and reactors, the tanks 7 years old. In QT I only did water changes with water form my DT. Not so sure about the light, I had it diled way down in Qt. You bring up a good point about the water possibly being to clean. I run GFO and carbon full time for the sps. And I have a 125 gallon rated skimmer on a 75g. I have located a pretty sweet carpet that has been with a guy for many months. Possibly will be bringing that guy home today.
I want just one carpet to stick with me!

 

[MnFish1]

Good luck with the new one.

 

[Christopher Davis]

Good luck with the new one.

Little skeptical of these guys right now. Below is a pic of the potential new anemone, what do you guys think? He’s had it sense August. Is this a gig?

 

[Taylor t]

Agreed however my system is as stable as it gets, dosers for consisitancy and an ATO and reactors, the tanks 7 years old. In QT I only did water changes with water form my DT. Not so sure about the light, I had it diled way down in Qt. You bring up a good point about the water possibly being to clean. I run GFO and carbon full time for the sps. And I have a 125 gallon rated skimmer on a 75g. I have located a pretty sweet carpet that has been with a guy for many months. Possibly will be bringing that guy home today.
I want just one carpet to stick with me!

Beautiful tank. Your tank looks to be doing very well.

My gigs never did well what the heck a calcium or Kalk reactors. You will need to discover what works for you and your system. You could rule out the DT water by making water new everyday and aging it 24 hours. If you can get the anemone stable with that water, only then would I try introducing the DT water to the TT. This could tell you that the DT water is great, or a little off, or possible it could acclimate to your DT after a purge. I look at it like a scale, every little thing you can do can tip it into the side of survival. My tank is horrible right now. I'll snap a picture of how bad my tank looks and post it later, and you will see colored gigs thriving in a totally neglected tank, through a front glass you hardly see through. I'm baffled they do so well while my coral all dies from neglect.

 

[Taylor t]

Little skeptical of these guys right now. Below is a pic of the potential new anemone, what do you guys think? He’s had it sense August. Is this a gig?

Pic of under disk needed. Blue, purple, or red spots under disk? Looks like haddoni, no spots, but under pic needed to be sure.

 

[Christopher Davis]

If I do

Pic of under disk needed. Blue, purple, or red spots under disk? Looks like haddoni, no spots, but under pic needed to be sure.

pull the trigger on this guy should I
Add directly to DT
Or
Put in QT And observe? With no meds?

 

[Taylor t]

Tough call. You just had the blue one in your DT. For me, I would not add to DT for a few weeks. That's me. If it was me, I would put it in TT and observe, and give it a "placebo treatment", or a purge of new water everyday for a few days and see how it does. Tough call because you say that one has been in captivity a while and doing well, but you just had one in your DT that failed. The fear of sickness I have gone through too much to just put another one in a tank where one just died.

 

[Christopher Davis]

Okay the anemone has a white foot and red oral disk underneath

 

[Ryan T.L.]

Good discussion and a nice thread! Best of luck with your new anemone! I’ve only used Cipro for an ear infection and boy that thing is strong

Never owned a haddoni but always wanted to. On dives in the Red Sea I’ve seen a few gorgeous specimens well over 2ft.
What discourages me are all the posts on this and other forums starting with something like “my haddoni was doing great for 3 weeks and then...” Kudos to everyone who successfully keeps one!

I’ll follow, curious to see how it goes.

 

[Taylor t]

Okay the anemone has a white foot and red oral disk underneath

Hmm. Need to see a picture. Still think haddoni.

 

[chizerbunoi]

Sorry to hear about the last one. And I wish you good luck with this new one. It sure is beautiful.

If it was mine, I would put it in the display tank instead of quarantine. If the mouth came out like that I would give it several days before I took it out for treatment. Just to see if it would recover itself.

I think it stresses the anemone more to go from display to quarantine to display. the water quality and flow/light are very different between your QT and display.

 

[gig 'em]

I have to agree with Taylor, the anemone seemed like it started to decline pretty rapidly. I know you are chocking up some of it to the heater and other factors that went wrong, but your haddoni decline mirrored that of the decline of many anemones I've seen under stable temperature and lighting conditions. I also agree that carpets tend to like "dirtier" water. The gigs and haddoni I saw in Indonesia and Thailand were in some murky water and very silty/muddy substrate. No acros in sight. Mags on the other hand seem to be found in pristine water around acros and other SPS which makes me tend to believe that carpets like more nutrient to rich water. Could be one more key to the puzzle on haddoni success.