Clown Problems

[BPUMFREY]

So, we bought two maroon clowns, both juveniles, from the pet store with a six line wrasse for our tank.
We have had percula clowns before in our old tank. Well, we were told that when you put two clowns in together that you need to make sure they are similar in size and that one would become dominant and bully the other one into submission. (Not sure if this is accurate. I've done some research on my own, and some say to get clowns that have a significant size difference.)

In the first instance, one of our perculas ended up killing the other one, and she turned out to be a very aggressive fish. We attempted to add another clown, but he didn't last a week. Then we even tried to add a lyretail hawkfish, because he was so much bigger and would not (we were told) be bullied due to his semi-aggressive nature. Two days later we woke up and his head was on one side of the tank and his body was on the other. So we ended up finding that fish another home.

We attempted to have a pair of mocha clowns in that same tank, but one of them had a parasite that killed him and our mandarin. We used garlic extreme and solved the parasite problem, saving our remaining mocha. We found him another home as well (nervous about how our first pair went).

With the ones we recently obtained in our new setup (29 gal) both were about the same size, and it was clear from the start which one was dominant. I'm not sure they were old enough to have been a female and male already, but the dominant one was giving the other one quite a hard time. Well, the underdog of the two ended up lying on the sand bed behind our liverock, and he wasn't moving normally. Worried about him, we put him in a "holding cell" hanging on the side of the tank for observation. He still had vibrant color and had not lost any weight. He was even swimming around and eating yesterday. Not long after we put him in the holding cell, he died.

The reason for my post is to ask for any words of wisdom on this topic. We have been sadly unsuccessful with clowns, and they are supposed to be the starter fish for saltwater aquarists! We have had success with corals and even mandarins, which we were told were hard to keep. Have we just been unusually unlucky with the fish we have gotten? Are we doing something wrong?

 

[JSB]

In my experience a lot of clowns (especially maroons) can be mean. Anymore, I shy away from anything but A. Occellaris with which I have always had good luck. I understand that A. Percula are similarly easy, but I don't have direct experience. I would not go as far as "starter fish" as clowns have a propensity for brooknella, but they are also would not be considered a hard one to keep either. As I just added a pair of A. Occelaris to my tank, the basics rules that I followed are: Pick a non-aggressive species (no maroons, tomatoes, etc). Buy a juvenile pair, not necessarily a mated pair. Quarantine them together for 2-4 weeks. Introduce into the display tank at the same time. I have never had any aggression, only moderate defensive activity, out of A. Occellaris.

 

[H@rry]

In my experience a lot of clowns (especially maroons) can be mean.

:amen:

In my experience, maroons and clarkii can be very aggressive. The only one I really like for their temperament are ocellaris.

 

[pickupman66]

FWIW, I have kept all of the above. I had a Maroon pair (purchased that way from SA) in which the male died shortly after introduction. a year later, I placed another tiny maroon in with the female and it was love at first sight. not a single bit of aggression (expect towards my hand). Same experience with my Black Percs. I had a Large female who was was well established in the tank and this past april bought a small juvenile. there was never any aggression here either and they paired up immediately. They stick very close to each other now with the male never straying more than 8-10+ from their corner of the tank where they sleep.

This tells me that that in my experiences that the best way to successfully pair a set is to start off with a known female. the larger the better, and then introduce a very small juvenile. I have had success this way 100% of the time (two times).

 

[Tomoko Schum]

I've played a dating service for a few sets of ocellaris clowns. My success rate has been 100% with ocellaris clowns. I stayed away from other clownfish because they are so mean and tried to intimidate me from the other side of the glass.

I have also successfully mated three sets of sixline wrasses and a pair of yellow coris wrasses (sequential hermaphrodites) by introducing tiny juveniles (unsexed or females) to much larger ones (males) who inhabited my tank for a few years. Although the common recommendation is to add these fishes all at once, you can still add a new member if you know how their gender works. I am thinking about mating my cherub angelfish (Centropyge argii) next.

 

[pickupman66]

Tomako, that woudl be really cool. I love my little yellow tail pygmy angel.

 

[Tomoko Schum]

Thanks. I need to find a tiny little one since the pygmy angel in my tank is not a real big one.

 

[BPUMFREY]

Thanks for all the info! We may try to wait a while until this one gets bigger and introduce a much smaller one. We'll see how it goes.

 

[Tomoko Schum]

For mating aggressive fresh water fish such as cichlids, it is normal to let a smaller fish establish a territory first before introducing a larger one. This works for certain saltwater fish, too. I paired up dragonets, such as mandarin, this way a few times in the past. I've also done this with ocellaris a few times, and it worked fine every time. With other aggressive clownfish, I am not sure what works. I'd rather get an established pair than keep trying and losing fish in the process...

 

[pickupman66]

Tomako,

it worked this way with my maroons. I had a very well established and then bought the smallest male I could from Sustainable Aquatics. Paired INSTANTLY.

 

[Tomoko Schum]

I am glad that it worked for you, Lindsey. I like to keep my fish in pairs if possible. Sometimes, I can only get one fish and end up taking a chance later by introducing a tiny one to mate with the first.
Mating bangaii cardinalfish turned out more tricky than others. I introduced six young fish at once since I suspected that they were not hermaphrodites. They paired off later into three pairs, and I had to separate mated pairs due to territorial disputes among them. They look peaceful, but they can be very mean to each other . It's fun to keep them, though, since they breed like guppies.

Tomoko

 

[Tomoko Schum]

I am thinking about mating my cherub angelfish (Centropyge argii) next.

Tomako, that woudl be really cool. I love my little yellow tail pygmy angel.

My fish dating service seems to be working.

A few weeks ago, I added a tiny Cherub angelfish (either a female or undeveloped juvenile) to my 180 where my larger Cherub angelfish has been living for awhile. Although the larger one initially chased the small one all over the place, they are coexisting in the same tank now without a fight. On the day after the introduction of the smaller one, the big one turned up looking rough with cuts and scrapes due to diving through the rockwork like a mad man, but the smaller one looked just fine. They don't act like a mated pair, but they are not fighting at all any more

 

[_Alex_]

I agree with allowing the one clown to grow territory in the tank then add a much smaller one. Clowns in my understanding are born as all males and then as dominance comes in the big bully becomes female. This is to preserve the species. We bought a pair of perc clowns when first got into hobby 3 years ago. Lost male after about a year from a battle with ick. Bought a much smaller young juvenile clown probably barley 6 months old and they mated up instantly. They are now starting to go threw the start of spawning but haven't seen any eggs yet. Just keeping a spot clean and protecting there corner!

 

[EmilyXLC]

Holy cow... You had one mean Maroon. I've always stayed away from Maroons because of their crappy dispositions.

I had a pair of Clarkii that I had purchased at two different times (I had a large one first & purchased a significantly smaller one later) & they never fought... They took to one another immediately, so I suppose I got lucky...

Is there a way for you to take the large one back to exchange it for a smaller one? : /