Clownfish Aggression

[Nick Steele]

Another thing you might have to do is box her after a couple weeks. Sometimes they will get along for a few weeks and then get all nippy again so just keep an eye. The smaller one might eat less while around the aggressive one also this will stunt his growth and is nothing to be scared of just a FYI so you don’t get worried.

 

[Birdbrains?]

How much do you know about clownfish?

That is a very poorly formulated question Nick but I will try to answer it; I started reading about that family of lifeforms in nineteen eighty-eighth.

This is normal clownfish behavior while they settle who is the dominant female.

I disagree. They have settled who is dominant at this stage. They have to turn fully male before they can turn female and at this stage they might not be fully developed males btw.

But they have no personhood, which means that their brains have zero understanding of what it means to be an individual and the dominant fish now wishes to control the movement of the smaller fish. The smaller fish was at some point unwilling or unable to keep up with the bigger fish and the bigger fish is now executing the smaller fish for being weak (fishes are not humane creatures so those instincts are to be expected of them).

The reason this is happening is because the aquarium they are in is preventing the halfeaten fish from leaving, and it is in no way natural clownfish behaviour.

They picker and fight between each other constantly. I have seen breeding pairs go through phases where the male is torn up a little and gets chased off but in the end it’s all good.

No no no. They practice and play. Unless somebody is weak or sick, then they should stay away or they eventually get killed or stressed to death.

Dogs playing is all good, dogs tearing at eachother until one is dead in a corner of an artificially small space, is not actually all good. Fishes are not humane creatures, if you allow it's instincts to be cruel, you will keep cruel fishes. The advice I gave here, was let the small fish heal up, move rock and restart. The key is that the big fish is cornering the smaller and the smaller has no escape so escape routes have to be made available. Tank size is completely inconsequential.

Imo the clowns are a little to similar in size to get a nice pair but it can be done. Box the aggressor is the method used when pairing clowns as it’s a time out. Boxing the victim can work but not quite effectively imo.

Ofc. they are too similar, why would an immature male fish want to share it's territory with another immature male fish? Right now the dominant fish can think of nothing but stressing the other fish to avoid the development of gender hormones, which won't happen until the fish is unstressed.

Generalising the time-out principle to clownfish species, is somewhat risky since they are sequential hermaphrodites and the entire point is to avoid two fishes trying to reach female biology in the same tank.

I’ve seen clowns that were breeding happily for years get in a dispute and the male killed the female because he was of similar size and then turned female and was breed with another male.

Yeah violent relationships might end like that, especially since fishes aren't humane obviously. So try to allow the defeated fish somewhere to retreat, that way the female will learn how to lure it's mate....

.......not just how to chase it.

 

[Birdbrains?]

Luckily, the smaller one is still eating and not losing color just partiality beat up. The tank isn’t huge or anything it’s a 20 gallon nuvo.

Super good to hear, you really just need it to heal up and the tank is a good size anyway, I just never put clowns into community tanks and they do benefit from good rock formations

Happy reefing y'all.

 

[Nick Steele]

I disagree. They have settled who is dominant at this stage. They have to turn fully male before they can turn female and at this stage they might not be fully developed males btw.

Yes the bigger one might be dominant but the little guy might not be so willing to give up the opportunity quite yet being so close in size. It’s in their nature if they are of similar size to fight for that top spot.

Ofc. they are too similar, why would an immature male fish want to share it's territory with another immature male fish? Right now the dominant fish can think of nothing but stressing the other fish to avoid the development of gender hormones, which won't happen until the fish is unstressed.

Generalising the time-out principle to clownfish species, is somewhat risky since they are sequential hermaphrodites and the entire point is to avoid two fishes trying to reach female biology in the same tank.

In the wild there are usually numerous immature males around waiting for the opportunity to become the mature male. As the mature male/female die then the next in line transitions.
Once again in their nature to be in groups waiting for the opportunity to become next in line.

In our tanks its not the normal setting so the aggression is usually pin pointed to one other clown. Also separating them for a few days will not allow the less dominant one to start it’s transitioning process. That takes months in the right conditions.

 

[Aaron Soliz]

Yes the bigger one might be dominant but the little guy might not be so willing to give up the opportunity quite yet being so close in size. It’s in their nature if they are of similar size to fight for that top spot.


In the wild there are usually numerous immature males around waiting for the opportunity to become the mature male. As the mature male/female die then the next in line transitions.
Once again in their nature to be in groups waiting for the opportunity to become next in line.

In our tanks its not the normal setting so the aggression is usually pin pointed to one other clown. Also separating them for a few days will not allow the less dominant one to start it’s transitioning process. That takes months in the right conditions.

Since they Are separated for the past 2 days... the point is to get the little one back in good shape?
From what I have been noticing is that the smaller is all around the breeder box. I have seen the female charge once but hasn’t since. I don’t know if she has finally came off her high horse or anything but the little one is swimming all over the place and still eating like a champ.

 

[Aaron Soliz]

Super good to hear, you really just need it to heal up and the tank is a good size anyway, I just never put clowns into community tanks and they do benefit from good rock formations

Happy reefing y'all.

Thank you for sharing a lot of insight about the matter. I have my fingers crossed this works and that both are fine. I do remember asking the owner, you don’t think the size are too close because i am used to getting one bigger clowns and one smaller but in this case... these are harder to find in groups to pick from, so only this pair came in. Should of trusted my instincts as I never had this issue in the past. Here is my rock work.

 

[Birdbrains?]

Yes the bigger one might be dominant but the little guy might not be so willing to give up the opportunity quite yet being so close in size. It’s in their nature if they are of similar size to fight for that top spot.

So your insight in clownfish is that they freely hang out in our tanks and they want to fight to the death without any resting up in between fights to regain strength?

I am still not sure we can agree about this, not at all, sorry

In the wild there are usually numerous immature males around waiting for the opportunity to become the mature male. As the mature male/female die then the next in line transitions.

That is indeed what clownfish do, but doesn't really work as a counterargument for anything I said Nick.

Once again in their nature to be in groups waiting for the opportunity to become next in line.

Yeah, and they move around up to fifteen square miles while our tank-pets doesn't actually. Our tank pets are forced to take beatings, why be saying on a forum that it is anything like "natural"? Why not just admit that it is not and try to help people with good advice for our lovely and artificially created pet habitats?

In our tanks its not the normal setting so the aggression is usually pin pointed to one other clown. Also separating them for a few days will not allow the less dominant one to start it’s transitioning process. That takes months in the right conditions.

Actually it takes about 10 minutes for the fish to start relaxing enough to begin to develop gender hormones which is why you see the dominant fish chasing the others constantly.

It takes month to change into a female fish.
- it does not take months to feel like a dominant fish, that is two completely different things - completely

Since they Are separated for the past 2 days... the point is to get the little one back in good shape?

From what I have been noticing is that the smaller is all around the breeder box. I have seen the female charge once but hasn’t since. I don’t know if she has finally came off her high horse or anything but the little one is swimming all over the place and still eating like a champ.

Yes they do that, they will call for eachother to come, try to get through the net and all that, and they will continue to do so as long as they are separated. All they wanna do is play with eachother and be as one-fish.

But if one runs out of energy, and small fish do that sometimes, the big fish will instinctively test it to see if it is a "hazard" to the flock, or school, of fishes. If the smaller fish is found to be continuesly weak over several days, it will be chased away or killed.

But any dominant fish wants to be the BEST swimmer, so don't let your small fish practice without her for too long or she might punish it alittle when it gets the chance to do so

Thank you for sharing a lot of insight about the matter. I have my fingers crossed this works and that both are fine. I do remember asking the owner, you don’t think the size are too close because i am used to getting one bigger clowns and one smaller but in this case... these are harder to find in groups to pick from, so only this pair came in. Should of trusted my instincts as I never had this issue in the past. Here is my rock work.

That was exactly why I thought that exploiting the damages the small fish had, to allow the already superior fish to settle in more. That way the "female" will go into growth burst sooner than if they are interrupted in settling in while the damaged fish keeps feeling down enough to not be a rebel

Really beautiful rockwork, much like the basic rockscape that I used for a 60L nano but I also had to separate and rearrange little things
It gets ...really hard, to place power heads and anemone in nanos and also have to rearrange it all later after putting fishes in but...

You have a great tank and if I can make mine work for clowns, you can definitely get happy clowns out of what you got going now regardless of similar sizing.

 

[fishguy242]

1 more!!!

 

[Aaron Soliz]

O

So your insight in clownfish is that they freely hang out in our tanks and they want to fight to the death without any resting up in between fights to regain strength?

I am still not sure we can agree about this, not at all, sorry



That is indeed what clownfish do, but doesn't really work as a counterargument for anything I said Nick.



Yeah, and they move around up to fifteen square miles while our tank-pets doesn't actually. Our tank pets are forced to take beatings, why be saying on a forum that it is anything like "natural"? Why not just admit that it is not and try to help people with good advice for our lovely and artificially created pet habitats?



Actually it takes about 10 minutes for the fish to start relaxing enough to begin to develop gender hormones which is why you see the dominant fish chasing the others constantly.

It takes month to change into a female fish.
- it does not take months to feel like a dominant fish, that is two completely different things - completely






Yes they do that, they will call for eachother to come, try to get through the net and all that, and they will continue to do so as long as they are separated. All they wanna do is play with eachother and be as one-fish.

But if one runs out of energy, and small fish do that sometimes, the big fish will instinctively test it to see if it is a "hazard" to the flock, or school, of fishes. If the smaller fish is found to be continuesly weak over several days, it will be chased away or killed.

But any dominant fish wants to be the BEST swimmer, so don't let your small fish practice without her for too long or she might punish it alittle when it gets the chance to do so



That was exactly why I thought that exploiting the damages the small fish had, to allow the already superior fish to settle in more. That way the "female" will go into growth burst sooner than if they are interrupted in settling in while the damaged fish keeps feeling down enough to not be a rebel

Really beautiful rockwork, much like the basic rockscape that I used for a 60L nano but I also had to separate and rearrange little things
It gets ...really hard, to place power heads and anemone in nanos and also have to rearrange it all later after putting fishes in but...

You have a great tank and if I can make mine work for clowns, you can definitely get happy clowns out of what you got going now regardless of similar sizing.

I am glad I acted when I did because no telling if the “female” was going to lighten up on my little guy. I could have taken the chance but didn’t want to as many people told me to just leave it unlike people on this form. I’ll give everyone updates as time passes. Tomorrow I am home for work so I’ll release her in the morning and see how they do through out the day. Tomorrow morning Will be 3 days in jail lol. Any other advise you could give at the moment ?

 

[fishguy242]

just be ready with net just in case,is male visiting female?

 

[Aaron Soliz]

just be ready with net just in case,is male visiting female?

Net will be ready to go. I’ll be watching for a while. Yes, he is. Especially when i introduce food. I give her more than him.

 

[Aaron Soliz]

Quick update for everyone. I let the “female” out tonight. Seem like she has learned her lesson. She hasn’t gone after the smaller one. She will charge and lay off before getting to him. Weirdly enough, both are dancing. Smaller one more than the bigger one but in the past 20 min out I have seen the smaller one dance about 10 times compared to her one time. Slightly swimming together here and there. This hobby is something else lol.

 

[Aaron Soliz]

This is all i am seeing. Lol! A bad a** dance battle.

update: 10:46PM. Lights have been out for an hour. The whole time they have swam very close to one another. No fighting from the female just a couple of love bumps on the side of the smaller one. We will see

 

[Aaron Soliz]

Update: I can tell the female is getting back into that mean attitude but, no major damages like she was doing 4 to 5 days ago. Normal bumping and charging him but nothing serious. She def runs the tank lol.

I did notice that my smaller clownfish has white poop. Could this be a parasite or is this from feeding then frozen mysis?

Thanks!

 

[Birdbrains?]

I did notice that my smaller clownfish has white poop. Could this be a parasite or is this from feeding then frozen mysis?

Thanks!

White poop essential means that something is bothering the digestion, provoking an overproduction of intestinal slime.

Before beginning a cure, I suggest that you try feeding something else, to see if it is a mild case of indigestion rather than worm parasites.

I never feed the dominant clown, I literally just feed until the small clown gets something and whatever the big clown grabs along the way, is like a byproduct of me trying to feed the small one

But I often see variations in poop and in the beginning the smaller fish especially had some issues releasing waste.

It cleared up after I got my hands on some dried Nori pages and replaced a few of the regular feedings with tiny Nori fragments.

It seemed to help the fish push the food through and production of more solid waste with less slime coating quickly followed.

I still sometimes see clear round pellets enveloped in a slime string, but it depends on how much I feed...if I feed the same pellets more often, the waste clumps together and breaks up upon release as it is supposed to do. I also try to add a tasty flake food in between other foods as often as possible, in order to help the fishes "stack" their foods internally or whatever

Sometimes the smaller fish eats some wild growing hair algae (well, both fishes do that but anyway), and I also think that does make waste look somewhat funny because then sometimes, it is only a little tuft of digested hair algae that comes out as waste.

But try the Nori. I just keep some sheets of dried up Nori that I can shred and soak when needed. I gave Nori every day in the beginning but it does not seem necessary now that their digestion has settled with my feeding habits - see if it helps the little one push through, with just alittle luck there might not be any futher issues

 

[Nick Steele]

Any updates on these two?

 

[Aaron Soliz]

Any updates on these two?

hey Nick! Much appreciated on reaching out asking how they are doing. I was going to do an update today actually but caught up with work till just now. Yeah, they are doing wonderful. I am utterly surprised on how they are getting along so well after she was our in jail for 3days. She will bump him and charge but doesn’t damage his body. His fins had healed up about 85% so I am hoping this continues.

 

[Nick Steele]

That’s great!

And yeah mine even after 3 months of being together will once in a while get in a squabble and the little male will do his shaky dance. Makes me laugh ever time!