Clownfish Circus (harem) Club!

kinetic · Nov 13, 2017

Ardeus said:
I tried to introduce a group of 11 small clownfish to an established couple but an immediate outburst of brooklynella took 10 fish away.

That was some months ago and now I have a trio with no signs of aggression until now.

Super artistic video. Love it! Sorry to hear the clowns were wiped out with brook. Did it come in with the 11 clownfish you purchased?

Ardeus · Nov 13, 2017

I didn't have any disease in the tank for 10 years and I didn't quarantine the new fish. It was a traumatic experience and it made me give up the idea of having a big group of clowns.

The remaining 3 are getting along and share the same anemone. The smaller one hasn't grown at all. They haven't laid eggs yet and I am hoping that when that happens, the couple will still accept their tiny companion.

zagviper71 · Nov 13, 2017

5 days to go... my 50 picasso's will arrive!!

kinetic · Nov 16, 2017

Patterns I've seen with my group:

No Anemone

I was successful without an anemone with a female and alpha male bonded pair with a group of smaller males (x6 clowns)
I had to remove a smaller male that was actually large enough to be a threat to the alpha male. He was getting attacked quite a bit by the bonded pair. (x5 clowns)
Added two small clowns from the same clutches as the originals (x7)
The smallest male was being picked on by another non-alpha male. That non-alpha seemed a bit out of the ordinary, so after removing him, the group did well (x6). This group of bonded pair + all small 1" clowns did fairly well for awhile.

With Anemone

I finally introduced a H. Magnifica. I was going to do this before I got the clowns, but I had changed my mind to just keep BTA's. My friend convinced me otherwise so I got a magnifica after, rather than letting it establish first.
The ocellaris loved the magnifica (previously ignored the BTA completely). It's like they're completely high on drugs the whole time they're in it. Ultimately, the bonded pair kicked everyone out and took it over for themselves.
The bonded pair were not aggressive to the others, other than kicking them out. The alpha male chases anyone away that gets even remotely close. The female doesn't do much enforcement, but she leaves the anemone to check up on every clown in the tank, they all doing dances for her as she approaches (pretty amazing, all hail the queen).
Unfortunately, the largest / most aggressive of the small males became extremely aggressive. The small males tried to then host the BTA, but the one male kicked them all out and started chasing them hard. I gave him away quickly after he started nipping (previously was totally calm before the anemone).
Then the next largest started behaving the same way. This happened everytime I removed the last largest, and the next largest would become aggressive. I believe they were now trying to establish a new alpha or female from the smaller male group since they felt like they were no longer part of the bonded pair.
I have 5 now, one is in an isolation box in the tank (the last aggressive male), two small males, and the bonded pair. Everything seems pretty calm, the smallest two males hang out but don't fight. The bonded pair still just kick people out when they try to enter the magnifica, and the isolated aggressive male just swims around his little box, seemingly oblivious.

What I've learned

Having a bonded pair with males works well, except when you introduce a new "territory" for them and they don't accept the males in. The new males will then fight to establish amongst themselves.
The males will fight as soon as there's an opening, especially if there's one that's even slightly larger than the others.
Each clown has a different character. Some are extremely docile, some give up very quickly, and some are fighters at first opportunity. I now have two extremely calm relaxed males and a bonded pair. I might just keep it this way since they seem pretty happy (still need to rehome the latest aggressive male).

What's Next
I've talked to Sustainable Aquatics and they will do their best to ship me another 3 clowns from the same batch at as close of size as possible in my next order. I'm thinking of trying three more and hoping that they will be smaller than my current two small males (who are very docile). The current two small males being larger should keep the smaller ones from squabbling, and the bonded pair will just do their own thing. That's the theory at least! I'm still on the fence of trying this. It might just be wishful thinking, but could be worth it. I'm just running out of friends to pass the clowns off to.

Ardeus · Nov 16, 2017

Keep a close eye on them, they're extremely unpredictable, one day out of the blue, they may change their minds.

I even had an occasion where a dwarf angel joined forces with the male clown to try to kill the female. I saw what was happening before they killed her and sent the angel away. It took a couple of months for the couple to get together again. Keep a close eye on them. Your group is too small.

I have a trio and they're fine but I keep a close eye on them.

kinetic · Nov 16, 2017

Ardeus said:
Keep a close eye on them, they're extremely unpredictable, one day out of the blue, they may change their minds.

I even had an occasion where a dwarf angel joined forces with the male clown to try to kill the female. I saw what was happening before they killed her and sent the angel away. It took a couple of months for the couple to get together again. Keep a close eye on them. Your group is too small.

I have a trio and they're fine but I keep a close eye on them.

Group too small? My bioload is pretty low, I could add quite a few more if that would help. What would you suggest?

Even with 7 clowns and feeding anemones etc. I'm at 0 nitrates and phosphates easily.

Ardeus · Nov 16, 2017

I think that with a small group it's almost impossible to be successful, longterm. They change with time and so does the group dynamics.

In an enclosed space with a small group, they can too easily focus their aggression on a single fish. They can create individual relationships between each one of the group. The group must be big enough to prevent that. What works in the ocean doesn't work in a tank.

The main reason I recently added other species to my tank was to try to keep the clowns from focusing too much on themselves. They have been fine with zero aggression but I know they can't be trusted. Odds are that at some point I will have to remove the extra.

I would go with a group of at least 15. In a way, the same rules that apply to an african cichlid tank, seem to apply to them. But the clowns are far more unpredictable.

zagviper71 · Nov 16, 2017

Under 2 days till i get my clowns!!! Woooo. I agree with @Ardeus, @kinetic i think u wound need 15 to 20 clowns

zagviper71 · Nov 16, 2017

Anyone ever acclimate 50 fish at once?? Lol... the clowns are all about 1" in size, gonna put them all in a 5g bucket with a airstone in bucket. Gotta raise salinity from 1.019 to 1.025.

kinetic · Nov 16, 2017

@Ardeus thanks for the insight! I've noticed the unpredictability as well. 15 will be interesting in this tank. I'll have to think about it. I watch the fish pretty carefully, but I guess unless I have 15+, I won't ever be able to have the confidence that they'll work things out on their own.

zagviper71 said:
Anyone ever acclimate 50 fish at once?? Lol... the clowns are all about 1" in size, gonna put them all in a 5g bucket with a airstone in bucket. Gotta raise salinity from 1.019 to 1.025.

Probably need a heater to match the temp too. You could probably just use a cheap thermometer to check between the bucket and tank.

I haven't found fish to be super sensitive to ph swings, but wouldn't hurt to do a few water dumps from DT into bucket over time as well. I wonder if you could do salinity + ph all at the same time by removing 1/4 of the water from the bucket, and then adding the 1/4 from DT into the bucket. Doing that over a few hours could probably work. But I've never actually acclimated fish to different salinity, so not really sure how difficult that would be.

Ardeus · Nov 16, 2017

That's a huge adjustment in salinity upwards. It's something that should be done 0.001 per day, so it can't be done in a bucket.

Do you already have anything in the tank? I would consider lowering the salinity of the tank to 1.020. Fish seem to be able to make quicker salinity adjustments down but not up.

zagviper71 · Nov 16, 2017

Ardeus said:
That's a huge adjustment in salinity upwards. It's something that should be done 0.001 per day, so it can't be done in a bucket.

Do you already have anything in the tank? I would consider lowering the salinity of the tank to 1.020. Fish seem to be able to make quicker salinity adjustments down but not up.

No fish in tank only 18 bta!

Ardeus · Nov 16, 2017

I tried to have 1 established couple and 11 helpers but brooklynella wipped 10 of the clown in 3 days.

I wanted to try to get a group working without reaching a number that prevented me from knowing each fish one by one. I will never know if it would have worked. Probably not.

Ardeus · Nov 16, 2017

zagviper71 said:
No fish in tank only 18 bta!

If you already have those anemones then I would find a way to make the adjustment in a bigger container over the course of 4 or 5 days.

zagviper71 · Nov 16, 2017

Ardeus said:
If you already have those anemones then I would find a way to make the adjustment in a bigger container over the course of 4 or 5 days.

Well... nvm.. i was just talking to breeder.. he has been rising the salanity for me.. clowns are up to 1.023 in his holding tank.

kinetic · Nov 17, 2017

I'm pretty sure my 24"x20"x20" display won't be able to hold 15 clowns =/

I'll try to stick with the final 4 and keep a close eye on them. If anything, I'll end up with the bonded pair and call it good =)

Ardeus · Nov 17, 2017

I did a project with the most social cichlid, Neolamprologus multifasciatus and kept adding 1 fish per week until I had 6.

They acted like the most vicious fish on earth. Without huge numbers or other strong distractions, they end up killing each other.

You can watch it here, it's quite a ride.

Bpain05 · Nov 17, 2017

I'm hoping to add 10 clowns to my 93 cube soon. I currently have one 1-1/2" Snowflake. I originally purchased him with 3 others for my Nano tank, they were >1/2", but he was the only one that survived. I'm hoping the bigger tank will help.

kinetic · Nov 18, 2017

Well, I'm now down to 4 clowns. Bonded pair in the Magnifica, a fancy white extreme and a mocha. The latter two are 1" and pretty calm around one another. The mocha is really trying hard to fit in with the bonded pair so that he can join in on the anemone. The fancy white just hangs out in the corner by himself.

I'm considering getting more later, with the intention of seeing if I can pick out the ones that are most aggressive and hoping I'll end up with very non-aggressive tempered clowns at the end. It's going to be expensive and time consuming, and maybe a bit of a failure. But out of the 8 clowns I've had, these 4 seem to be ok. So not too bad!