Clownfish not eating day 4

[exnisstech]

I think you probably read my post about what I am going to do! I used live rock and turbo start to get things going. My nitrate levels are acceptable, and nitrite which is toxic to fish and a direct derivative of Amina all show that my bacteria and filter are doing their job! Since it is a new week it has been 5 weeks…not that any test strip is conclusive, which is why I will have a test done this afternoon.

No I was reading the original post in this thread and I did not see any cycle info just that the tank has been running for 4 weeks with no mention of the cycle method or ammonia levels.
But I've been known to over look things

 

[jtlong]

+1, I didn’t see an ammonia test and the pH strip is reading really low (but those strips are often inaccurate). You’ll need to double check those values, your store should be able to help you with that.

+1 on also needing the tank to remain fishless for 60 to 75 days to let any possible diseases die out.

Jay

Wow. I’m not sure you’re reading!

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

My nitrate levels are acceptable, and nitrite which is toxic to fish and a direct derivative of Amina all show that my bacteria and filter are doing their job!

Just to put this out there - the Nitrogen Cycle goes:

Ammonia to Nitrite to Nitrate ( and then to Nitrogen Gas)

"This conversion from ammonia to nitrite to nitrate to nitrogen gas is known as the nitrogen cycle."*

What the others are saying is that your test showing almost no Nitrites and literally 0 Nitrates indicates that your tank's cycle is incomplete - meaning that the Ammonia (which was not tested for either directly or even really indirectly here) appears to be staying as Ammonia rather than converting to Nitrites then Nitrates (at least according to your test strips there).

In other words, your levels on that test are showing that your bacteria and filter are not doing their job. (Personally, since you used live rock and TurboStart, I doubt this is really the case - I'm assuming that the bacteria and filter are doing their job and that your fish died from disease, which is why running the tank fishless [fallow] for 60+ days has been suggested; as mentioned, however, having some testing done to confirm this is a good idea.)

Also, freshwater and saltwater tanks are different environments and have different parameter needs/issues. For example, Nitrite (which is toxic in freshwater) is non-toxic in marine environments (like a saltwater reef-tank) at pretty much any level below a ridiculously high one:

In a not fully cycled system, nitrite might possible get high enough to be an issue and I wouldn't put in fish at 10+ ppm nitrite. The lowest tox level I've seen reported for rapid toxicity of nitrite to fish >100 ppm. The 10 ppm gives a protective buffer.

Nitrite and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Generally, the following are good parameter guidelines for saltwater aquariums (the only important one from table 2 as far as most people are concerned is Nitrate):

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Table 1. Parameters critical to control in reef aquaria.

Table 2. Other parameters in reef aquaria that aquarists may want to control.

In short, double-check that your tank is actually cycled (and cycle it if needed), and - if it is cycled (or even if it's not) - assume that disease is what actually killed your fish and prep to monitor/QT/treat your future fish as needed to prevent further deaths.

Optimal Parameters for a Coral Reef Aquarium: By Randy Holmes-Farley

[note: edited on 5/29/2022 to update the nitrate and phosphate sections with higher recommended levels.] One of the main roles of an aquarist with a coral reef aquarium is to ensure that the conditions are right for their tank inhabitants. There are many different attributes of the aquarium...

www.reef2reef.com

*Source:

Florida Department of Agriculture & Consumer Services

Florida Department of Agriculture & Consumer Services

www.fdacs.gov

 

[jtlong]

Here…let me just put this here…

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Here…let me just put this here…

I'm assuming that the bacteria and filter are doing their job and that your fish died from disease, which is why running the tank fishless [fallow] for 60+ days has been suggested;

if it is cycled (or even if it's not) - assume that disease is what actually killed your fish and prep to monitor/QT/treat your future fish as needed to prevent further deaths.

Current Quarantine Protocol

2024 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed, proactive quarantine process can effectively eliminate these...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[jtlong]

So you think that disease took out my fish, and they were sick when I got them. They came from two separate tanks at the LFS.
Also you are saying my tank is contaminated?

The LFS sampled the water the dead fish were in and said ammonia killed them, but you can clearly see the test sample is negative..

Regarding the contents of your post:
That is insane! I have a tiny tank, it is basically the size of a quarantine tank! I hear you, and I wouldn’t post here if I pretended to know it all. So with that being said, what other options are there (aside from ditching the hobby) that would make it reasonable to have a pair of clownfish and a few corals? Honestly a lot of people on here have small setups, and I would assume are just folks trying to enjoy a salt water aquarium without paying someone an arm and a leg to just “do it for them.”

 

[exnisstech]

Here…let me just put this here…

You should have put that in the OP so we could have seen it.

I think you probably read my post about what I am going to do! I used live rock and turbo start to get things going

Why would you think that? I replied to this thread. I have no idea what you have posted elsewhere but there is no mention of how you cycled your tank in this thread. I also have no idea what your going to do unless it's to continue to be disrespectful to the people trying to offer help that you asked for. Hope you have better luck next time.

Thanks to @brandon429 for mentioning the ignore button. I didn't know it existed

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

So you think that disease took out my fish, and they were sick when I got them. They came from two separate tanks at the LFS.
Also you are saying my tank is contaminated?

That would be my personal guess, yes - sick at the store and likely bringing that sickness to your tank too (the disease forum here on Reef2Reef is, unfortunately, full of examples of this sort of scenario).

what other options are there (aside from ditching the hobby) that would make it reasonable to have a pair of clownfish and a few corals?

If you don’t want to do a QT yourself, I’d personally suggest getting aquacultured or pre-QT’ed fish (there are a few well-known vendors in the hobby who pre-QT fish; Dr. Reef is one of them that also does QT for inverts, which a nice bonus). Buying QT’d or aquacultured fish can bemore expensive than buying them un-QT’ed from some other places, but it drastically reduces the chances of disease killing anything in your tank.

With inverts (including corals), the chances of them bringing in a fish disease (such as ich or velvet) are incredibly low, but (as a few unfortunate people* on the forum here have found out) not zero. There are only a few places that QT corals, but the two I know are Terra Reef Aquaculture and Epic Aquaculture (the QT procedures for both of these can be found in the thread linked below).

List of Quarantined Coral Vendors

Hey guys, Title pretty well sums it up. Can’t really find a current list anywhere. To be clear: quarantined from both coral and fish diseases. Anyone have a few go-to vendors? Gunna test the water with some Acros and Shrooms in the Angel tank.

www.reef2reef.com

Regardless of where you get your fish and inverts (coral included) from, though, before you add more fish to your tank, you’ll want to run the tank fallow (meaning without fish and without adding anything new to the tank) for 60-75 days at 81F - without the fallow period, there’s a good chance that whatever killed your clownfish here will kill any new fish you add as well.

*A link to a discussion on invert QT by one of the unlucky few that had disease brought in by inverts:

Keeping CuC Alive in Quarantine.

So it’s coming time for me to restock the crew. While the exact composition and numbers are TBA, thinking it will be around 15 blue leg hermits, 5 nassarius, 1 mexican turbo and a skunk shrimp. Ultimately they’re going in my 260gal, which currently has a tuxedo urchin, 1 hermit crab, 1...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

You should have put that in the OP so we could have seen it.

Why would you think that? I replied to this thread. I have no idea what you have posted elsewhere but there is no mention of how you cycled your tank in this thread. I also have no idea what your going to do unless it's to continue to be disrespectful to the people trying to offer help that you asked for. Hope you have better luck next time.

Thanks to @brandon429 for mentioning the ignore button. I didn't know it existed

I suggested the OP have the water tested at the store. I don’t trust API ammonia tests. Also, the dip strip used was for freshwater (as evidenced by the iron test on it). I’m not sure which of its tests are even valid in marine tanks.
Ultimately, this was probably a disease issue, but we needed to rule out water quality first…..

Jay

 

[jtlong]

These are ok…but I still take water samples into the store as I did last night. Their test was pretty close to exactly what I was seeing with these test strips.

so how does one rid their tank of Ich or some other disease?

 

[LeDart]

These are ok…but I still take water samples into the store as I did last night. Their test was pretty close to exactly what I was seeing with these test strips.

so how does one rid their tank of Ich or some other disease?

Raise water temp to 80 degrees Fahrenheit, and put your tank into a fallow period for 72 days, a fallow period is a period without fish in the tank, this eradicates the parasites in the tank.

Edit: It may be 77 days, although I have always been told it is 72 days.

 

[Sharkbait19]

Fallow is acceptable at 60 days according to recent studies.
A qt can be as simple as a 10 gallon tank with a heater, hob filter, and pvc pipe for hiding. It just needs to be a temporary setup, and will help immensely in the long term.

 

[woodyarmadillo]

OP some very knowledgeable, well respected people on here are trying to help you out, but you are being very rude to them. I’m not sure if the LFS showed you or told you what the ammonia levels were on their test when they said ammonia levels killed the fish but I would look into that. If they are claiming ammonia levels and not reimbursing you for the fish, then I would want to see the proof.

Determining the cause of death could change how you proceed. Test strips in general are just not reliable. Looking at your ammonia test, it’s not the most trustworthy test kit, but I would lean towards believing it’s a disease issue but definitely curious what the LFS found. That said, every LFS is going to be different and they could be running unreliable tests themselves. If you can determine that the cause was not water quality related and was in fact disease related, then the fallow period mentioned above is the way forward.

I am like you in the sense that I don’t have a QT tank and have 1 single small display tank, but I understand the risks. I’ve been lucky so far, but if I introduce a single invert or fish that has disease, I run the risk of losing everything so I am going to be very cautious going forward. Ordering from a pre QTed source online is a good option in our case.

Either way, I would recommend investing in some good test kits soon. To me being confident in my testing equipment is very important. I recently had a little ammonia scare due to some snail deaths in my small tank and now keep an in tank ammonia monitor in there. Long term, you probably want to have test kits available for Salinity, PH, Alkalinity/DKH, Nitrates/NO3, Phosphates, Calcium, and Magnesium. I suppose that depends on how seriously you want to take keeping your coral alive and healthy, but at the very least, I think you should have a good test kit for Salinity, Nitrates, and Phosphates. I use a Milwaukee refractometer for salinity. I use Salifert for PH,DKH,Calcium,Magnesium and Hannah checkers for Phosphates (PPB) and Nitrates (high range). To me the salifert kits weren’t cutting it on those 2 and I wanted more precision. There are many other options, but that’s just what I’ve been using.

Sure there are people out there that have had success using tap water instead of RODI and not testing anything but I can’t imagine investing the kind of time and money it takes to get one of these tanks going without setting myself up for success by researching a ton and using quality tools to make sure I am on track.

 

[Cell]

nitrite which is toxic to fish and a direct derivative of Amina all show that my bacteria and filter are doing their job!

Nitrite is not toxic to marine fish at the levels we experience FYI. That's a freshwater thing.

 

[woodyarmadillo]

Nitrite is not toxic to marine fish at the levels we experience FYI. That's a freshwater thing.

Yep, my nitrite was elevated for awhile after my cycle was complete. Heck they may be now, I haven’t tested them. To me the things that stood out from the test strips provided were the low low PH and the near zero nitrate and nitrite. After my cycle was done, both of those numbers were pretty elevated for quite awhile. Again, I believe this is most likely due to the test strips not being reliable.

 

[jtlong]

Yep, my nitrite was elevated for awhile after my cycle was complete. Heck they may be now, I haven’t tested them. To me the things that stood out from the test strips provided were the low low PH and the near zero nitrate and nitrite. After my cycle was done, both of those numbers were pretty elevated for quite awhile. Again, I believe this is most likely due to the test strips not being reliable.

I’m not sure what you think I am being rude. I just didn’t see the point on repeating something that I had at the time just said I would already do. I’m sure you would find that a bit frustrating too. I think people are too sensitive these days. As I said before I wouldn’t take the time if I pretended like I knew everything, but I have to as many others do in the realm of the rational. So with that being said. My nitrate and nitrite levels had fluctuated up a couple weeks ago, and they as of today are in the normal range, according to the LFS and other posters on a different post. My ammonia levels are still 0. I also own a refractometer. One thing that may have not been mentioned but I think I did, I did a 50% water change 24 hours before the fish died. I did that because my nitrite levels were at a 1 and my nitrate levels were also elevated. Operating on the information that my nitrite levels should be 0 and my nitrate levels around 0-20 that is what I did. My salinity has always been a .024. So there you go.

 

[woodyarmadillo]

I’m not sure what you think I am being rude. I just didn’t see the point on repeating something that I had at the time just said I would already do. I’m sure you would find that a bit frustrating too. I think people are too sensitive these days. As I said before I wouldn’t take the time if I pretended like I knew everything, but I have to as many others do in the realm of the rational. So with that being said. My nitrate and nitrite levels had fluctuated up a couple weeks ago, and they as of today are in the normal range, according to the LFS and other posters on a different post. My ammonia levels are still 0. I also own a refractometer. One thing that may have not been mentioned but I think I did, I did a 50% water change 24 hours before the fish died. I did that because my nitrite levels were at a 1 and my nitrate levels were also elevated. Operating on the information that my nitrite levels should be 0 and my nitrate levels around 0-20 that is what I did. My salinity has always been a .024. So there you go.

Trust me it’s not that people are too sensitive. I understand you are frustrated with your situation, but you are a beginner asking questions and getting thoughtful responses from veterans that have a lot of experience and knowledge. They are taking precious time out of their day to try to help you but you are responding with things like “wow, do you read?” to very reasonable questions from a staff member/moderator of reef2reef. At no point have you thanked anyone for providing their time and knowledge and it doesn’t appear that you’ve taken any of the guidance provided either. It has nothing to do with “people being too sensitive these days”. You are being rude now in the same way people would have been considered rude in the early 1900’s. You came here to ask for assistance and you’ve been given excellent advice from some reefing veterans and you didn’t show any sign of appreciation and worse, don’t appear to have even considered taking their advice and applying it. I’m not sure what you want to hear, but you are definitely going to get a lot less responses when you act like this.

 

[jtlong]

You are Tripping buddy!! Haha!

 

[Townes_Van_Camp]

You are Tripping buddy!! Haha!

I'm an outsider here. You were ungrateful and rude to experts who attempted to help you based on the poor information you gave them. I'm gonna get edited for this but here it goes... You aren't being just a ******, you are the dang nozzle.