Club soda Calcium Reactor

[McDam]

Long time reader and loiterer here at R2R, I believe this is my first post after being in this hobby for around 7 years . But this is a question for the people much more chemistry savvy than I, and those using calcium reactors. Something that I have been contemplating for a while.

I have never used a calcium reactor and frankly don't think I ever will, but from my basic understanding C02 is injected into the water, which than lowers the pH and acidifies the water allowing it to dissolve calcium based media and than the calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium rich water is than dosed appropriately into the aquarium in its preferred balanced ratios.

Calcium reactors seem too complicated and take up a lot of room of which I do not have, but could I not come to the same effect by using Club Soda or soda water!

Soda water or water into which carbon dioxide gas under pressure has been dissolved has a pH of around 3-4 from what I understand. Why would it not be possible to simply mix a bunch of calcium media with Club soda and allow it to dissolve and then dose the resulting solution slowly into the aquarium?

Besides having to monitor pH, which shouldn't be a problem, and possible impurities in the soda water ( which you could avoid by making your own using RODI water) would there be any other negative side effects? pH may be not as significant if air-rating the mixture? and other things can be done to improve the process but just the basic concept; Will it work? Point being to be able to dissolve the coral structures and put it back in the water as a dissolved solution

In effect I could see it being much more practical than two or three part dosing for the more medium sized aquariums that are on the edge of too-large for two-part or kalkwasser, yet too-small to require a calcium reactor.

Any way just throwing it out there. It has been plaguing me off and on for quite some time. I am in between tanks right now and in the process of setting up a 90 Gal and I don't think the 30 gal I am working with right now could handle the pH swings. Once the 90 is running and stable I just might give it a go but thought I would throw it out there just in case there is something I am missing, which I have no doubt there is.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

You cannot dissolve nearly as much calcium and alkalinity into fresh water as you can salt water at the same pH, so it is often not enough based on evaporation rates.

Someone recently tried a similar thing here using fresh water in a CaCO3/CO2 reactor:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ro-di-water-into-calcium-reactor.239266/#post-2814093

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I tried it here using fine aragonite sand and got a volcano of CO2 bubbles, water, and sand

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Calcium Carbonate As A Supplement ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/7/chemistry

from it:

At one point I had the bright idea of adding aragonite to seltzer (soda water) bought at the grocery store to really boost the solubility and maybe have a nice, liquid additive. Seltzer has far more carbon dioxide in it than water in contact with normal air (which is why it goes flat when open), and that extra carbon dioxide will cause a great deal more calcium carbonate to dissolve (at 3.5 atmospheres CO2, the solution would contain more than 10 meq/L alkalinity and would be similar to limewater in potency, but much lower in pH). If only I had been able to mix them!! Instead, it ended up a science experiment for the kids, with the added aragonite sand providing a perfect surface for the carbon dioxide to turn into the gas phase and erupt from the bottle as a fountain of water, gas, and sand!

 

[McDam]

HAHA To funny , Thanks a bunch Randy !
Looks like I have some more reading to do

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

You're welcome.

If you try it, let us know how it works out!

 

[McDam]

Well Randy !! and to anyone else that is curious, I think i might have pulled this one off!!

Its been a few busy years since this original post but I have finally set up my 90 Gal in our new house earlier this spring. All livestock, caral, and rock transferred over great and other than a bit of an algae issue everything is starting to come along just fine.

Now on to the good stuff. Since I set this system up again, I decided to go with Kalkwasser for Cal and Alk supplementation and to also aid with low pH, seems logical, right?
So for the past few months that is what I have done, using a dosing pump, and premixed 2 gal of lime-water. Not sure why but I could never really dial it in. Alk always seemed to be constantly low, calcium low. I tried supplementing with other 2 part, that I had used previously, to bring up alk/cal. And when I was able to get the levels to come up then the corals started declining. So I stopped all dosing and let things settle out while doing more regular water changes. On a good note once I did that everything started bouncing back and coloring up again. (All that aside as it really doesn't matter)

But... I still needed something to supplement with. I could always go back to the two-part that worked for me in the past, but then I remembered that I had this idea and I came back here to look over Randy's comments again. Although I was slightly discouraged that Randy had already tried something similar with no success I was convinced I could make it work.

So earlier this last week I endeavored to come up with a solution.

My assumptions where that if I mixed carbonated water and tank water into a sealed container full of coral media (I used small dry rock ruble since I had some around) where the ph can be controlled within the reaction chamber by the rate and ratio of the dose of each liquid, and the subsequent addition of fluid would then force the effluent out and into the sump. Once the ratio was figured out I could proportionally increase or decrease the amount added by both dosing pump to reach a drip/flow rate to satisfy the calcium and alkalinity demands of the tank.

So I set out to test it. I already had two dosing pumps from previous two-part, had all the tubing i needed and the media required. I just needed a seal able container to put it all in.
I got some fittings that would allow me to connect the tubing and insert the pH probe. Just had to buy some Club Soda. Easy Peasy!!

I drilled two hole on one side, one for the CS CS ( Club Soda) and one for the SW (Saltwater). One other hole near the top side for the effluent to drain out of, and one in the lid for the pH probe. Filled the unit with the rock ruble and presto, a miniature calcium reactor.

Once I had that all done I did a few tests to get a better idea if I would actually be able to get the pH low enough without using the entire bottle of CS, turns out the CS has a pH of around 5.34 measured using apex pH probe.

Then I tested to see how much CS it would take to get the SW down to an acceptable range to disolve the media. as it turned out it was around a 10:1 ratio. I added .1 ml of CS to 10 ml of water and it dropped from 8.02 down to 6.2!!! So this was good news. this meant it would not take a whole lot of CS to get to the desired pH.

So I hooked it all up and gave it a whirl.

So one pump is pulling water from the sump and injecting it in the middle section of the reactor. the other pump is pulling from the bottle of CS and injecting it in the bottom. No re-circulation within the reactor but I may try and add it some how. pH is monitored at the top and as fluids are pumped in the excess is pushed out the upper side and back into the sump. I filled the reactor ( or bottle to be frank) with water from the sump then added CS until I reached a pH target of 6.50. I initially set the dose to started out with a 20:1 ration SW:CS to see if the ph would raise or lower and then adjust from there. What i didnt factor in but made sense was that the 10:1 ration would not be the same when the coral media is added. as it disolves it seems to increase the ph, which was fine i just had to add a bit more.
here is the pH reading while trying to tune it or dial it in.

then it seems i found the sweet spot and i gotta say i am quite surprised by how well it is able to control the pH.

so now all thats left is to monitor tank parameters. Get Alk and Calc up to a desirable level and ajust dosing to match the demand.

I did do an effluent alk test quickly last night and was very excited when I when through the whole 1ml syringe of titrant and it was still blue.(red sea test kit) I will have to to another test but from what I gather it is around 25 dkh. I dont know whats ideal but its a pretty good start!!!!

Calcium reactor!!
two pumps, a bottle, coral ruble, apex pH probe, and a $2 bottle of Club Soda !!! Pretty exciting!!!!

 

[Water Dog]

That’s sweet... pretty cool DIY CaRx contraption. Now you gotta take it a step further and hook it up somehow to a Soda Stream. Just cuz... why not!?!

 

[McDam]

That’s sweet... pretty cool DIY CaRx contraption. Now you gotta take it a step further and hook it up somehow to a Soda Stream. Just cuz... why not!?!

Thanks Water Dog!
That was my initial intent, to graduate to the soda stream using RO/DI and make my own, but judging from my tanks reaction so far, the club soda may have an added unforeseen benefit!!

Hint: I left a couple spoiler photos in the first post.

And here’s a bonus FTS.

 

[McDam]

Correction. For some reason I can not edit a previous post? Forum Newbie
I made a mistake in my previous post about ph levels and ratio's. (not to mention all the spelling mistakes)

First test was 10 ml of tank water and 1 ml of club soda resulting in a ph of 5.66 . Ratio 10:1
next I tested 10 ml of tank water and .1 ml of club soda " " Ph of 6.62. Ratio 100:1

 

[McDam]

Well Just to keep this post going for my own recollection, its been around four months now, although my initial intent was to do regular testing and updates life got in the way. But I am glad to say that my tests last night where very positive and it seems this little reactor alone has been able to maintain my calcium and alk at a consistent levels of 7 dkh and calcium around 450 ppm. I will be upping the dose a little and retesting and I will add kalkwasser to try and bring the levels up to a more desirable range ie 7.5 - 8 dkh then see if it can maintain it. Also note I maintain magnesium with a powder supplement ruffly putting in a tablespoon directly into the sump when ever the levels drop below 1350-1400.

Oh and the added benefit I spoke of previously which I didn't comment on yet (because I wanted to wait and see if there where any positive results) is the additional potassium in the soda water as an additional beneficial trace element. At first I did notice some great polyp extension, but haven't noticed any effect on coral coloration. But I Have used potassium supplements (POHL’S K-BALANCE) in the past that have given similar results.

I have been using roughly one 2L bottle of soda water every week, and at 0.99$ a bottle that's only $52 per year. Can you get your C02 bottle for a calcium reactor for that price or cheaper?

 

[jda]

I have been using roughly one 2L bottle of soda water every week, and at 0.99$ a bottle that's only $52 per year. Can you get your C02 bottle for a calcium reactor for that price or cheaper?

It costs about $13.XX, so say $14 to refill my 20 lb co2 bottle at the local welding shop. I got the bottle on craigslist about a decade ago, or more, for $20 - they are more like $50 used now. That one refill will last me about a year. ...so the first year is more expensive since you have to buy the cylinder, then it is cheaper after that.

 

[Bpb]

To me the benefit of a correctly set up reactor is not in the money saving. It’s in the hands free use. While your method is initially cheaper, once the tank is packed with sps, you’ll be putting way too much time into it for my appeal

 

[jda]

That 20 lb bottle running for a year will produce 25.x (ish) dKh effluent at about 180-200 mls per minute. This will supply a heavily stocked acropora tank also with some large (and growing) squamosa clams.

 

[Bpb]

That 20 lb bottle running for a year will produce 25.x (ish) dKh effluent at about 180-200 mls per minute. This will supply a heavily stocked acropora tank also with some large (and growing) squamosa clams.

I meant that toward the OP. I am pro-conventional-reactor use

 

[jda]

Me too. I knew that you were not talking to me. I use a CaRx because of the consistency and easy too... the fact that it is cheap to operate is just a bonus for me.

With my packed-full tank, the club soda demand would probably outpace the amount of water that I evaporate - I got there with saturated kalk.

 

[McDam]

I agree with you both whole heartedly but the idea was a convenient solution for smaller systems, with a similar convenience, consistency to a CaRx, and simular result without the headache of two part or kalkwasser. And so far besides the weekly bottle change it has been a set it and forget it system.

 

[jda]

I think that most calcium carbonate melting methods can be stable and easy once you get them set up - they cannot really do good or bad things too fast.

I am sorry if I missed this, but what is your output dKh and your mls per minute of effluent?

 

[McDam]

Plus, at 52$ a year plus media it would be a long time before I reach the cost of a reactor, solinids, ph controller and everything else involved possibly running $1000 plus for a stable setup.
Once demand is higher and it’s no longer cost efficient to run then a calc reactor would be the next step. It is kinda an in between calc reactor and other options and with stability.
And the other main reason besides it just being a fun experiment is that I don’t have a welding shop or acces to one living in a smaller remote community. But club soda always being readily available.

 

[jda]

Having been in the market for a while, take some time and buy a used setup. The reactor it's self is a simple device and reactors from the 1990s are still as good as the ones today. You can usually get everything from the bottle, regulator, reactor for about half price if you have time to shop around. My most recent Korallin 10000-1 (huge one) was about $350 with all of the gear on the used market.

[soapBox]Please don't use a pH controller. You can do better without one if you are smart enough to learn how to get the optimum dKh with a good flow and bubble ratio - while some people don't even want to try and understand this, you should be able to nail it or else you would have failed at this endeavor. IMO, pH controller is for people who cannot figure out how to tune... or have not yet gotten sick of the inconsistency and stopped using them. [/soapBox]

 

[McDam]

I think that most calcium carbonate melting methods can be stable and easy once you get them set up - they cannot really do good or bad things too fast.

I am sorry if I missed this, but what is your output dKh and your mls per minute of effluent?

Currently I am limited by my dosing pumps to only dose once per hour. The pump drawing tank water is set to 50 ml per hour and the pump drawing club soda is set at 25ml per hour. So a combined 75 ml per hour of combined solution dosed back into the tank every hour. But the pumps are off set so one is dosing every 30 min or so. Adding either 25 or 50 ml.
I haven’t measured dkh of the effluent since the initial set up. I will update next time I get a chance. What would be typical?