Communication with ATI's Ben Funk

pdiehm · Sep 7, 2018

I've been trying to understand my ATI ICP test, and I guess that's a problem of mine, I tend to ask the why's and keep asking them over and over until I understand.

So, my ICP test came back that I have 11.38 ppm of Nitrates. Not an exorbitant amount. Very reasonable and manageable in a reef tank. However ATI recommends a value of 2.00 ug/l.

I have 3.08 ug/l (I assume ppm like Nitrate) of Phophorus vs the recommended amount of 8.43. So I'm deficient 5.35 ug/l (ppm?).

Phosphate tested at 0.01 vs a recommended ratio of 0.02. Another deficiency.

Long story short, he mentioned something about a Redfield Ratio that I'm out of balance, which is keeping the nitrate values where they are and that in order to lower the nitrates, I should dose Phosphorus into the tank.

Now I'm already growing algae, if I dose more P into the tank, wouldn't that make things worse? Or do I just do nothing and let the Phosphate/Phosphorus rise naturally to gain that balance?

This is my confusion.

CNDReef · Sep 7, 2018

I wouldn’t dose any phosphate and just reduce feeding for a while. They have to base the answer off of a known value, in this case the “redfield ratio” but that’s just a guideline. Plenty of people have higher po4 to no3 or vice versa compared to the redfield ratio and their tanks look great.
If you do dose po4 dose half the recommended dose, too easy to over do it

pdiehm · Sep 7, 2018

Toomanyfish said:
I wouldn’t dose any phosphate and just reduce feeding for a while. They have to base the answer off of a known value, in this case the “redfield ratio” but that’s just a guideline. Plenty of people have higher po4 to no3 or vice versa compared to the redfield ratio and their tanks look great.
If you do dose po4 dose half the recommended dose, too easy to over do it

Yeah, I'm hesitant to dose anything. my one trochus snail grows turf algae on its shell like its going out of style. I have this brown algae on my rockwork, my glass needs to be scraped about every other day. I think I have plenty of phosphate/phosphorus in the tank. But I'm also not a scientist either.

chipmunkofdoom2 · Sep 7, 2018

You should not attempt to mirror or approximate the Redfield ratio. It is a useful reminder that marine life need a little bit of phosphate and a good bit of nitrate, but that's it. If everything is happy in your tank and you're growing algae, you aren't phosphate deficient.

pdiehm · Sep 7, 2018

chipmunkofdoom2 said:
You should not attempt to mirror or approximate the Redfield ratio. It is a useful reminder that marine life a little bit of phosphate and a good bit of nitrate, but that's it. If everything is happy in your tank and you're growing algae, you aren't phosphate deficient.

Things aren't growing very well. I get some growth. I'm not sure I'm phosphate deficient given that I'm growing about 3 type of algae. I do know something is off, but I have no idea what.

MnFish1 · Sep 7, 2018

pdiehm said:
Things aren't growing very well. I get some growth. I'm not sure I'm phosphate deficient given that I'm growing about 3 type of algae. I do know something is off, but I have no idea what.

I agree with the others - the Redfield Ratio (the ratio of carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus. (106:16:1)) is famous because it showed that this ratio is constant among 'phytoplankton' throughout most of the worlds oceans. It is not the ratio of those things in the water itself but in the living organisms. So it would be interesting to see what ATI's rationale is in using it for dosing purposes? IMHO

pdiehm · Sep 7, 2018

MnFish1 said:
I agree with the others - the Redfield Ratio (the ratio of carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus. (106:16:1)) is famous because it showed that this ratio is constant among 'phytoplankton' throughout most of the worlds oceans. It is not the ratio of those things in the water itself but in the living organisms. So it would be interesting to see what ATI's rationale is in using it for dosing purposes? IMHO

After trading some emails, the thinking is this. Increasing the PO4 will kickstart the scrubber to grow algae to outcompete the algae in the display, which will reduce the nitrates as I harvest the algae. He did mention the redfield ratio where if Nitrates arent reducing, odds are the phosphates are out of of balance and vice versa.

He mentioned lets get the PO4 up to 0.04-0.05 to work on helping the nitrates decrease due to denitrification. I have 30 gallons of water to do a 25% change this week and next, and from there decide if I need to dose phosphates up. But from what I understand, with my nitrates at 11.38, he said to be in balance, the phosphates would be at 0.7. Since that would be not optimal, it's better to have the nitrates lower, raise the phosphates up, and get things in balance that way.

I don't know all about that. What I know is, I clean my glass every other day, maybe every 3rd. It's a brown filmy thing that waves in the current. I know my trochus snails have hair/turf algae growing on their shells, it's kind of cool. And 48 hours after cleaning my mp40's, I have brown crud all over the pumps. My pukani rock has a brown sludge type algae (not dino's) on it.

MnFish1 · Sep 7, 2018

pdiehm said:
After trading some emails, the thinking is this. Increasing the PO4 will kickstart the scrubber to grow algae to outcompete the algae in the display, which will reduce the nitrates as I harvest the algae. He did mention the redfield ratio where if Nitrates arent reducing, odds are the phosphates are out of of balance and vice versa.

He mentioned lets get the PO4 up to 0.04-0.05 to work on helping the nitrates decrease due to denitrification. I have 30 gallons of water to do a 25% change this week and next, and from there decide if I need to dose phosphates up. But from what I understand, with my nitrates at 11.38, he said to be in balance, the phosphates would be at 0.7. Since that would be not optimal, it's better to have the nitrates lower, raise the phosphates up, and get things in balance that way.

I don't know all about that. What I know is, I clean my glass every other day, maybe every 3rd. It's a brown filmy thing that waves in the current. I know my trochus snails have hair/turf algae growing on their shells, it's kind of cool. And 48 hours after cleaning my mp40's, I have brown crud all over the pumps. My pukani rock has a brown sludge type algae (not dino's) on it.

All good - I was mostly wondering why they recommended using anything having to do with the Redfield Ratio