Completely Random Single Death?

[kayla s]

It’s been a while, so you may be right about the TT-method being used primarily to stay one step head of Ich; however, again, if you are willing to do frequent water changes, a couple of small 2 gallon fishbowls might mean less cost in medications in addition to the flexibility of ‘breaking down’ the quarantine/hospital tanks when you are done. Take them over to the sink and pour them out, and your done. I’m thinking with one small fish in there at a time, you should be able to get 2-4 good days at a time without a need to change the water due to ammonia build-up; hence the alert badge as a reminder.

This is so smart since I only have 2 fish now, I Really like the way your method sounds.

 

[kayla s]

@Rython Thank you for such a great write up. Wouldn’t velvet kill everything in my tank in about 24 hours? I was under the impression that my other clownfish would be dead already, if it was velvet.
But regardless, after reading this, I’ve decided to break down the tank and donate everything to LFS and stray from the hobby.
The numbers of disease carrying fish seems to be at a ridiculous high, and I just don’t have the time OR budget for medications and multiple tanks. Also don’t have the patience, quite frankly. The use of copper terrifies me, because of the sheer amount of accidental misuse I’ve seen/heard of.
Thank you again, everyone has been a wealth of information.

 

[Rython]

@kayla s I'm no expert on velvet, but from what i've read it does usually kill most every fish in a very short period of time, but maybe not 24 hours. However, the terrifying scenario some of the experts have mentioned is that now and then, a fish will survive a velvet infection and become temporarily resistant. These fish still carry the parasite and can transmit it to other fish, but will generally not succumb themselves for up to 6 months. I'm not suggesting that's what happened to your fish, but that's one of the circumstances that leads me to treat every fish with copper before putting it in my tank, because observation isn't going to catch that.

Regarding copper, it scared the heck out of me at first too. But chelated copper has a much wider range than the old ionic copper and the hanna checker is so accurate (and easy and fast to perform) that it makes the process super easy. I use the sticky at the top of this forum to estimate my total dose, then divide by the number of days I want in my ramp up. I dose that. Even if you miss, you're going to be way under theraputic still. So I measure that night, and now I know how much dosing that amount will increase the copper. Then I do that until I *should* hit 1.5 and I test again. I'm usually pretty close to right on. then I adjust it up to 1.75, test to make sure and I don't test again until the end of the 2 weeks, because it shouldn't change unless I get carried away with the top off. It's pretty easy and so far I haven't observed my copper parameter drift much.

 

[kayla s]

LFS offered me a cleaning wrasse to “eat the parasite” and told me not to move anything to QT, for stress reasons. They offered ParaGuard to put directly in my display tank, despite the fact that I have multiple anemones..
Wow, is there an abundant mess of contradictory information out there.

 

[JumboShrimp]

@ Kayla s , we didn’t mean to scare you out of the hobby! See whether this helps:

CopperSafe (by Mardel, about $12.00) is used at 1 teaspoon for four (4) gallons. Let’s say you want to use an old 10 or 20 gallon tank as a hospital tank. Fill it to 8 gallons (and mark the ‘4 gallon and 8 gallon fill level’ on the tank with a piece of tape as you go.) Add one (1) teaspoon of CopperSafe, the fish, and a day or two later a second teaspoon of medication. You are finished. The reason I say “8” gallons is the magic number is because when you need to do a water change, siphon down to the 4 gallon mark and add 4 gallons back which has ALREADY been pre-mixed with another teaspoon of CopperSafe. This way you are pretty much ensuring that your fish is continually in a therapeutic level of copper at all times. (For any small top-off due to evaporation, top off with non-medicated fresh water to your 8 gallon mark.) NOTE: If you need a bigger volume of water (such as to hospitalize more than one fish), just use an easy multiple of 4’s— I have used 16 gallons, for instance, and the trick is to change out 4 gallons at a time, using one teaspoon of CopperSafe. Conversely, if you want to use the 2 gallon fishbowl method, mix a one-teaspoon-to-4-gallon bucket of medicated saltwater and use 2-gallons at a time for a full water change.

 

[kayla s]

@ Kayla s , we didn’t mean to scare you out of the hobby! See whether this helps:

CopperSafe (by Mardel, about $12.00) is used at 1 teaspoon four four (4) gallons. Let’s say you want to use an old 10 or 20 gallon tank as a hospital tank. Fill it to 8 gallons (and mark the ‘4 gallon and 8 gallon fill level’ on the tank with a piece of tape as you go.) Add one (1) teaspoon of CopperSafe, the fish, and a day or two later a second teaspoon of medication. You are finished. The reason I say “8” gallons is the magic number is because when you need to do a water change, siphon down to the 4 gallon mark and add 4 gallons back which has ALREADY been pre-mixed with another teaspoon of CopperSafe. This way you are pretty much ensuring that your fish is continually in a therapeutic level of copper at all times. (For any small top-off due to evaporation, top off with non-medicated fresh water to your 8 gallon mark.) NOTE: If you need a bigger volume of water (such as to hospitalize more than one fish), just use an easy multiple of 4’s— I have used 16 gallons, for instance, and the trick is to change out 4 gallons at a time, using one teaspoon of CopperSafe. Conversely, if you want to use the 2 gallon fishbowl method, mix a one-teaspoon-to-4-gallon bucket of medicated saltwater and use 2-gallons at a time for a full water change.

Doing all this with infected tank water? Or new saltwater, and that 50% water change keeps the ammonia down? I can keep an eye on it with the ammonia guard.
If I were to dose the copper, which seems easy enough, the fish would still have to be kept out of the main infested tank for weeks and weeks for the parasite to starve in the main tank, correct?

 

[JumboShrimp]

The CopperSafe says it’s good on Ick, Flukes, Anchor Worms, Velvet “and other external parasites.” It is stable in your water for 30 days (of course, do not be pulling it out by running carbon or anything like that). So, you can start with your ‘old’ tank water, if you’d like, a new batch of saltwater, or any combination to fill your tank and pour the teaspoons of CopperSafe into initially (as you dose-up to the therapeutic level over a few days). This is because if all goes as it is supposed to, ‘none of the above’ listed problems will survive 30 days of therapeutic-level CopperSafe. After 30 days, just replace with non-medicated water (or run carbon) to pull down (and out) the CoperSafe. From there, continue to use your hospital tank for another 30 days to observe your fish before returning it/them to your display tank. Also, if you need to use additional medication for things not treated by CopperSafe, your tank has a fairly clean re-set. But again, you will have to watch your ammonia levels throughout (again, the SeaChem ammonia badge), because you basically have fish in an uncycled tank. Lastly, they may be in there 12 weeks if you need to let your display tank go fallow past all Ick possibilities. None of this is as hard as it sounds; but the smallest volume of water you can get away with, the smaller amounts of water to change out.

 

[kayla s]

The CopperSafe says it’s good on Ick, Flukes, Anchor Worms, Velvet “and other external parasites.” It is stable in your water for 30 days (of course, do not be pulling it out by running carbon or anything like that). So, you can start with your ‘old’ tank water, if you’d like, a new batch of saltwater, or any combination to fill your tank and pour the teaspoons of CopperSafe into initially (as you dose-up to the therapeutic level over a few days). This is because if all goes as it is supposed to, ‘none of the above’ listed problems will survive 30 days of therapeutic-level CopperSafe. After 30 days, just replace with non-medicated water (or run carbon) to pull down (and out) the CoperSafe. From there, continue to use your hospital tank for another 30 days to observe your fish before returning it/them to your display tank. Also, if you need to use additional medication for things not treated by CopperSafe, your tank has a fairly clean re-set. But again, you will have to watch your ammonia levels throughout (again, the SeaChem ammonia badge), because you basically have fish in an uncycled tank. Lastly, they may be in there 12 weeks if you need to let your display tank go fallow past all Ick possibilities. None of this is as hard as it sounds; but the smallest volume of water you can get away with, the smaller amounts of water to change out.

I won’t be able to get Coppersafe until October 5th, with shipping from Amazon.. SA is out of stock, nobody is carrying it in store here! Do you think the fish will be dead by then?

 

[Big G]

I won’t be able to get Coppersafe until October 5th, with shipping from Amazon.. SA is out of stock, nobody is carrying it in store here! Do you think the fish will be dead by then?

Coppersafe has had some dosage strength issues. Better to use either Copper Power or Cupramine. Which ever one is more readily available to you will work just fine for your fish.

 

[JumboShrimp]

Big G is right— Especially if you are able to accurately check levels, other forms of copper will work; but my experience has been with CopperSafe. I can say that an API copper test kit will keep you guessing as to what shade of color you are ‘really’ seeing, so that’s why I recommended the CopperSafe. It has never killed a fish of mine. I will say that I now use a Hanna Copper Checker— but you might find that a bit more expensive than you wish to invest at this point. As to whether you have until Amazon can deliver on Oct. 5th, I’d say you can go one of two routes: Pray your fish make it until then, or if your LFS have other forms of copper that you can start tomorrow, you can always switch over to the CopperSafe when it arrives, as long as you are careful not to over-dose in the transition. At least you will have the CopperSafe on hand for your next fish. Back to the “pray” part (lol), if it is Marine Velvet, doing nothing until the 5th (plus a few days to ramp-up) probably won’t work. For Ick, probably you’re OK. But these are just guesses, and a bit over my pay-grade. I “believe” a fresh water dip in the meantime may relieve some discomfort and buy you a few days, but I know it won’t cure the Ick or Marine Velvet. Hope this helps.

 

[MetaKnight101]

one more shot, because it’s almost like she posed!

Is it me or Do I see weird white spectacles under him or is it the glass?

 

[kayla s]

Coppersafe has had some dosage strength issues. Better to use either Copper Power or Cupramine. Which ever one is more readily available to you will work just fine for your fish.

Is it me or Do I see weird white spectacles under him or is it the glass?

you definitely do. This thread is trying to decide between velvet or ich. And teaching me how to set up a medicated QT!

 

[Big G]

you definitely do. This thread is trying to decide between velvet or ich. And teaching me how to set up a medicated QT!

The nice thing about either Copper Power or Cupramine is that the dosing recommended on the bottle is pretty darn accurate. What you need to keep in mind is that, for example, a 10 gallon tank is seldom actually ten gallons. So it's a good idea to measure the tank and see if it's 9 gallon, 9 1/2 gallon, etc. + a bit more if you are using a HOB filter. Comes in real handy when dosing copper to be as accurate as possible. Some fish are copper sensitive. So with that knowledge, you can avoid over-dosing the copper and making your fish healthier during its treatment.

 

[Big G]

I “believe” a fresh water dip in the meantime may relieve some discomfort and buy you a few days, but I know it won’t cure the Ick or Marine Velvet.

+ 1 on this. It's amazing how many of the parasites drop off during a freshwater dip. Some studies have stated that upwards to 90% of the parasites will drop off during the dip. It gives the fish better O2 uptake on its gills which helps the fish's immune system to fight off the parasites.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/video-how-to-do-a-freshwater-dip.286639/#post-3487082

 

[kayla s]

The nice thing about either Copper Power or Cupramine is that the dosing recommended on the bottle is pretty darn accurate. What you need to keep in mind is that, for example, a 10 gallon tank is seldom actually ten gallons. So it's a good idea to measure the tank and see if it's 9 gallon, 9 1/2 gallon, etc. + a bit more if you are using a HOB filter. Comes in real handy when dosing copper to be as accurate as possible. Some fish are copper sensitive. So with that knowledge, you can avoid over-dosing the copper and making your fish healthier during its treatment.

Sounds great, I’m getting more confident. I am setting up the emergency 10gal QT with an HOB and heater right now. I’ve read some people use 100% new saltwater, and some a mix of new saltwater and ICK tank water, which is best? should I use BioSpira and soak the media pad for the QT tank? And then big water changes in the QT while making sure the copper stays at medicating level? Will this help control ammonia for the 6-12 weeks that the DT has to be fallow?

And should I do a freshwater dip on all fish, regardless of symptoms, tomorrow before moving them into the QT?

 

[Big G]

Sounds great, I’m getting more confident. I am setting up the emergency 10gal QT with an HOB and heater right now, should I use BioSpira and soak the media pad for the QT tank? And then big water changes in the QT while making sure the copper stays at medicating level? Will this help control ammonia for the 6-12 weeks that the DT has to be fallow?

And should I do a freshwater dip on all fish, regardless of symptoms, tomorrow before moving them into the QT?

Soaking the media pad in BioSpira or Dr. Tims works for me. I also soak some ceramic material like Fluval Biomax in Biospira put it in a mesh bag in the HOB. And soak the foam pad from a foam bubble filter in the same. Works great and seldom have ammonia problems. Do you have a Seachem Ammonia Alert Badge?

 

[Big G]

And should I do a freshwater dip on all fish, regardless of symptoms, tomorrow before moving them into the QT?

Yep. Good practice. Use a dark colored container to watch for the little sesame seed remains of flukes that may also come off. The dip gives you good information allowing you to go forward with more confidence. Plus the benefits of removing some of the flukes during the dip and the possible velvet/ich parasites as well. It's a good thing for your fish.

 

[JumboShrimp]

Tip: Get a 1 gallon milk or water jug. When you fill your tank for the first time, and prior to putting in any equipment or PVC pipe, etc., fill the tank 1 gallon jug at a time and write down for safekeeping how many gallons it holds of water only. As I had suggested before, put some tape on the outside at periodic intervals. 4, 8, 16, 20 gallon-marks are helpful for CopperSafe; but you might also want to know where 5, 10, 15 and 20 gallons sit (depending on the size of the tank, of course).

 

[Big G]

Tip: Get a 1 gallon milk or water jug. When you fill your tank for the first time, and prior to putting in any equipment or PVC pipe, etc., fill the tank 1 gallon jug at a time and write down for safekeeping how many gallons it holds of water only. As I had suggested before, put some tape on the outside at periodic intervals. 4, 8, 16, 20 gallon-marks are helpful for CopperSafe; but you might also want to know where 5, 10, 15 and 20 gallons sit (depending on the size of the tank, of course).

+1 on this ^^^ I write on the tank with a permanent marker the gallon marks and the total capacity of the tank so I don't forget.

 

[kayla s]

Soaking the media pad in BioSpira or Dr. Tims works for me. I also soak some ceramic material like Fluval Biomax in Biospira put it in a mesh bag in the HOB. And soak the foam pad from a foam bubble filter in the same. Works great and seldom have ammonia problems. Do you have a Seachem Ammonia Alert Badge?

Alert badge and Cupramine will be here tomorrow! (A little worried about switching onto coppersafe from Cupramine..). Hey Also will have to wait until tomorrow to fill the tank with fresh saltwater (I don’t mix, I buy in 5gal jugs).
3-4 mins on the freshwater dip?
And I will be using a permanent marker also, since it’s just the QT! That was a phenomenal idea.

I’m actually sitting here watching the female scratch herself on the sand bed, is this symptom for both ick and velvet?