Confirming another Ich case...and hospital tank setup

shootingstar_reef · Feb 6, 2021

I just don't want to admit it to myself, but I think i got the ichs:

Current tank params @ ~3.5mos old:
SIZE: 45g Waterbox MARINE X; 30g DT/14.7 sump
TEMP: 75-77F
SALT: 1.023sg/30ppm, Tropic Marin Pro "Syn-Biotic" (whoops! checked right before this pic; it got a bit low it seems. I'll raise it)
pH: 8.2 (TPM Compact Lab)
NH4: <0.02ppm (ammonia alert badge)
ALK: 9 dKH (TPM Compact Lab)
NO2: 0 (TPM Compact Lab)
NO3: <1 mg/mL (TPM Compact Lab)
PO4: <0.04 (Hannah Phosphate checker, HI-713)
LIGHT: Fluval Marine spectrum LED (#14514)

Bought this particular royal gramma and two clowns (the only fish in ) a few weeks ago. Gramma began rubbing against a very particular spot in background, but otherwise has normal behaviors (eating regularly, swimming, bullying me). Clownfish also display typical behaviors. I also have a 3X scarlett hermits, 1X conch, 2X ness. snails; one zoa, one euphylia, GSP, and sympodium in the DT.

I do not have any medications on hand. I will buy some asap - it seems my basslet requires, specifically, "chelated copper?" Is that correct? I also do not have a copper test; at least not really...

Hospital tank setup (please confirm if acceptable): 10 gallon glass tank, sponge filter (should I get a HOB instead, or both?), thermometer. Will get another ammonia alert badge?

Plan: setup hospital, let it run for a day or two (right?) move fish in. Medicate as directed, leave DT fallow for ~76 days. Try not to cry. Did I miss anything? thx y'all xoxo

hsosa · Feb 6, 2021

shootingstar_reef said:
I just don't want to admit it to myself, but I think i got the ichs:

Current tank params @ ~3.5mos old:
SIZE: 45g Waterbox MARINE X; 30g DT/14.7 sump
TEMP: 75-77F
SALT: 1.023sg/30ppm, Tropic Marin Pro "Syn-Biotic" (whoops! checked right before this pic; it got a bit low it seems. I'll raise it)
pH: 8.2 (TPM Compact Lab)
NH4: <0.02ppm (ammonia alert badge)
ALK: 9 dKH (TPM Compact Lab)
NO2: 0 (TPM Compact Lab)
NO3: <1 mg/mL (TPM Compact Lab)
PO4: <0.04 (Hannah Phosphate checker, HI-713)
LIGHT: Fluval Marine spectrum LED (#14514)

Bought this particular royal gramma and two clowns (the only fish in ) a few weeks ago. Gramma began rubbing against a very particular spot in background, but otherwise has normal behaviors (eating regularly, swimming, bullying me). Clownfish also display typical behaviors. I also have a 3X scarlett hermits, 1X conch, 2X ness. snails; one zoa, one euphylia, GSP, and sympodium in the DT.

I do not have any medications on hand. I will buy some asap - it seems my basslet requires, specifically, "chelated copper?" Is that correct? I also do not have a copper test; at least not really...

Hospital tank setup (please confirm if acceptable): 10 gallon glass tank, sponge filter (should I get a HOB instead, or both?), thermometer. Will get another ammonia alert badge?

Plan: setup hospital, let it run for a day or two (right?) move fish in. Medicate as directed, leave DT fallow for ~76 days. Try not to cry. Did I miss anything? thx y'all xoxo

hsosa · Feb 6, 2021

You can try to catch him and give him a fresh water dip make sure the ph is the same.

Jay Hemdal · Feb 7, 2021

I would skip the FW dip and go with the plan to move all the fish into a QT and dose with copper. You'll need a good copper test kit, and you'll need to manage the ammonia level very well. I would use either Copper Power or Coppersafe. Timing is important here - it takes at least three days for copper to begin to help. Do NOT fall into the fallacy of raising the copper level slowly, you need to get them into an accurate full dose the first day. I often dose 50%, then test to ensure I'm at 50% and then dose the second half.

Jay

shootingstar_reef · Feb 7, 2021

oh thanks @jay! Can I stick with just a sponge filter or should I get a HOB too?

Jay Hemdal · Feb 7, 2021

If the sponge filter is new, it won’t have any beneficial bacteria on it. I always keep a sponge filter running in a sump so it will be full of bacteria and be ready to go when needed.
You’ll need some way to manage the ammonia. I don’t trust ammonia alert badges, but better than nothing. You’ll need lots of “bacteria in a bottle” like Dr Tim’s and maybe have some amquel on hand as well.
Jay

shootingstar_reef · Feb 7, 2021

It's actually been sitting in my sump for a good couple months! So I'm hoping that'll be good. I might pick up a bottle anyway.

Thanks so much for the help, I appreciate it

shootingstar_reef · Feb 12, 2021

for what it's worth here is my super basic hospital tank (sponge filter and bio block thing were sitting in my sump for a couple months). There is no HOB. They'll be fine for like, 2.5 months like this right? haha

also: I do have a separate kit for checking all the standard parameters, and they were fine for now (i even double-checked ammonia), I'll keep checking to make sure they stay that way

My royal gramma is NOT happy with me. Very upset, probably because I had to chase them for like a half hour in the dt to CATCH THEIR INFECTED TUCHUS. ugh reef keeping amirite

shootingstar_reef · Feb 15, 2021

Can anyone explain the following:

My ammonia alert changed tint - checked with the TPM Compact Lab and got an NH4 level of 0.2ppm. Did a 50% water change, and it went all the way down to: 0.2? I am very confused. Will continue to do water changes. Expected the levels to go down though...fish seem fine so far (2 clowns, 1 gramma).

Ocean_dreamer89 · Feb 15, 2021

The ammonia alert badge is the best way to monitor ammonia when you start the copper treatment because the copper reacts with other ammonia tests and will give you false positives. I would keep dosing some bacteria and try to keep that ammonia under control first. Just know that once you add copper that you cannot add Prime or anything like it to neutralize the ammonia because it would make the copper extremely toxic to the fish.

If it were me, I would wait to start any medications until you can get the ammonia under control, especially since you said that the fish look fine. Also, check out Humblefish's post regarding the different types of copper treatments and the correct copper tests. Certain types of copper (like Cupramine or Copper Power) require a certain test (like API or SeaChem)

shootingstar_reef · Feb 15, 2021

shoot. I have already starting dosing :T

I guess the cross reaction explains my wonky levels - my ammonia alert badge only slightly changed tint, it did not read 0.2ppm, its still more yellow ("<0.02ppm") than green ("<0.05ppm"). My ammonia test kit however reads 0.2ppm (is this the copper level then?).

I think I read that thread, I am using coppersafe, a chelated copper which is safer for my gramma, and am using the API copper test kit. I admit it's a little hard to tell exactly what my levels are, but I think it's around 2.0ppm.

Jay Hemdal · Feb 15, 2021

shootingstar_reef said:
Can anyone explain the following:

My ammonia alert changed tint - checked with the TPM Compact Lab and got an NH4 level of 0.2ppm. Did a 50% water change, and it went all the way down to: 0.2? I am very confused. Will continue to do water changes. Expected the levels to go down though...fish seem fine so far (2 clowns, 1 gramma).

Some sea salts have trace ammonia in them as high as 0.25 ppm. Test your freshly mixed saltwater, it may be one of those brands.
Jay

Ocean_dreamer89 · Feb 15, 2021

I agree with @Jay Hemdal . I've used API to test for ammonia when cycling and it never shows below 0.25 ppm (at least as far I can tell!). If you're ever in doubt, get a friend or LFS to test the water for you. I've read several other threads on a couple different sites of other people having the same issue with API.

shootingstar_reef · Feb 15, 2021

Ah thanks! I went ahead and tested, and unfortunately (or fortunately?) my salt mix is reading <0.02 ppm NH4.

Does this mean I can tentatively conclude it's the copper safe? As I'm typing this I realized that maybe I'll test this idea and add coppersafe to some newly mixed water, and see if I get an artifically high NH4 reading.

Jay Hemdal · Feb 16, 2021

shootingstar_reef said:
Ah thanks! I went ahead and tested, and unfortunately (or fortunately?) my salt mix is reading <0.02 ppm NH4.

Does this mean I can tentatively conclude it's the copper safe? As I'm typing this I realized that maybe I'll test this idea and add coppersafe to some newly mixed water, and see if I get an artifically high NH4 reading.

No - only Cupramine causes a false positive to ammonia tests, as far as I know, coppersafe won't do that.

At this point, as I understand it, you have two ammonia tests and they don't agree - the ammonia alert badge and the test kit. You tested freshly mixed seawater and got zero, and the tank reads high, so I would have to assume there is an ammonia issue in there. Can you get any of that "bacteria in a bottle"?

Jay

puffy127 · Feb 16, 2021

shootingstar_reef said:
Ah thanks! I went ahead and tested, and unfortunately (or fortunately?) my salt mix is reading <0.02 ppm NH4.

Does this mean I can tentatively conclude it's the copper safe? As I'm typing this I realized that maybe I'll test this idea and add coppersafe to some newly mixed water, and see if I get an artifically high NH4 reading.

I recently tested freshly mixed saltwater, freshly mixed saltwater dosed with copper power at ~2.0 ppm, and freshly mixed saltwater dosed with coppersafe at ~2.0 ppm. Both copper power and coppersafe gave false positive ammonia readings (~10x).

Ammonia Testing and Copper

@Jay Hemdal how are you testing ammonia when running copper? I read on a previous post you used API (salicylate method) and Hach. Most of us hobbyists do not have access to Hach instruments. Copper is known to interfere and give false positives for ammonia tests kits, except for the Seachem...

www.reef2reef.com

There are other threads on R2R also reporting false positives when using Copper Power/coppersafe.

They must use a form of nitrogen in the chelating agent, which gives false positives with the test. The only way to measure ammonia while dosing copper is apparently the Seachem Ammonia Alert badges, Seachem Multitest Ammonia Test Kit (which is pretty much the same method as the badges), and there are reports that the seneye also works with copper.

shootingstar_reef · Feb 16, 2021

i can get a bottle. ill pour some in as backup.

ill also do my own test today and report back!

Jay Hemdal · Feb 16, 2021

puffy127 said:
I recently tested freshly mixed saltwater, freshly mixed saltwater dosed with copper power at ~2.0 ppm, and freshly mixed saltwater dosed with coppersafe at ~2.0 ppm. Both copper power and coppersafe gave false positive ammonia readings (~10x).

Ammonia Testing and Copper

@Jay Hemdal how are you testing ammonia when running copper? I read on a previous post you used API (salicylate method) and Hach. Most of us hobbyists do not have access to Hach instruments. Copper is known to interfere and give false positives for ammonia tests kits, except for the Seachem...

www.reef2reef.com

There are other threads on R2R also reporting false positives when using Copper Power/coppersafe.

They must use a form of nitrogen in the chelating agent, which gives false positives with the test. The only way to measure ammonia while dosing copper is apparently the Seachem Ammonia Alert badges, Seachem Multitest Ammonia Test Kit (which is pretty much the same method as the badges), and there are reports that the seneye also works with copper.

Interesting - it seems that Coppersafe has changed their formulation over the years, probably at some point when Fritz took it over. I ran a Salicylate ammonia test on a spiked sample of RODI with Coppersafe on my DR5000 spec this afternoon. VERY interesting result - during the 15 minute reaction time, there was no real color development until right towards the end of that period....then it gave a final reading of 0.39 mg/l ammonia. I've run literally thousands of ammonia tests over 40 years and I always joke that I can predict the final ammonia reading by just looking at the color development after 60 seconds....but not in this case! It must be that the test chemistry takes some time to break the bond.

If Copper Power also does this, then we also need to determine if reducing agents will cause toxicity like they do with Cupramine. Amquel and sodium thio, perhaps others?

This is HUGE - how horribly ironic that perhaps for all this time, people who were having "copper toxicity" issues were all caused by misapplication of reducing agents? That would explain why I use copper with impunity and home aquarists mostly think "copper is highly toxic".

Jay

shootingstar_reef · Feb 16, 2021

wow good to know! learn something new everyday haha

I guess it's moot now, but I did my own test on newly mixed water and also got a false positive. So I guess I'll stick with the alert badge for now.