Confused About Parameters

[NDIrish]

Need some help understanding parameters.
These are my Params:
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 1
PO4 0
Ca 410
ALK 7.4
Mg 1350
Salinity 1.025
PH 8.2
My staghorn and birdnest are turning white at the bases. I have been told I need to raise my nitrates and phosphates (not doubting them just confused) starving my corals.
By the parameter tables, my nitrates should be <0.2 and phosphate should be <0.03.
That tells me my nitrates are a little high and my phosphate should be good?

 

[WIReefer]

Need some help understanding parameters.
These are my Params:
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 1
PO4 0
Ca 410
ALK 7.4
Mg 1350
Salinity 1.025
PH 8.2
My staghorn and birdnest are turning white at the bases. I have been told I need to raise my nitrates and phosphates (not doubting them just confused) starving my corals.
By the parameter tables, my nitrates should be <0.2 and phosphate should be <0.03.
That tells me my nitrates are a little high and my phosphate should be good?

You need detectable levels of PO4 otherwise corals will starve. 0.03-0.1 would be a good level with your Alk. Just try and keep it from the double zeros.

 

[NDIrish]

What do you mean "with your Alk"?
Should I raise it? If so what should my PO4 be?
Thanks

 

[WIReefer]

Your Alk is fine, just get detectable levels of PO4 so your corals don’t starve. I try and keep my PO4 around 0.03-0.08 my Alk is at 7.5.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

By the parameter tables, my nitrates should be <0.2 and phosphate should be <0.03.

What parameter tables are you referencing? I don't think there are many reefers who would suggest keeping nitrates and phosphates that low these days. Most people would recommend keeping several PPM of nitrates and between 50 and 100ppb (or higher) phosphates. My target is 5 - 10 ppm nitrate, 100 - 200 ppb phosphate.

 

[NDIrish]

What parameter tables are you referencing? I don't think there are many reefers who would suggest keeping nitrates and phosphates that low. Most people would recommend keeping several PPM of nitrates and between 50 and 100ppb (or higher) phosphates. My target is 5 - 10 ppm nitrate, 100 - 200 ppb phosphate.

From here:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.htm

 

[ScottB]

From here:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.htm

Yeah, I too used to follow this method. I did eventually get it to work for SPS after a couple of years. But it is a tightrope not worth walking IMO -- unless you are running a strong heavy in / heavy out method or a bacterial method like ZEOVit.

When you keep levels that low you are constantly teetering on the edge of starvation. You have to keep nutrients so extremely steady. Easier to do with an older biome. Impossible with a "newer" one say less than 3 years old. Add to this the constant risk of dinoflagellates.

Finally, even with a Hanna ULR test kit, your error range is .+-.02 for the phosphorus model and +-.04 for the phosphate model. Low range nitrate kits have even lower resolution. So while you may think you have an "acceptable" nutrient level, you might have none at all.

Unless you are overrun with GHA, keeping 5-15 NO3 and .05 to .1 of PO4 is a more modern consensus on nutrients.

Back to your corals... how old is your biome? Did you start with dead rock or live or a mix?

 

[NDIrish]

Yeah, I too used to follow this method. I did eventually get it to work for SPS after a couple of years. But it is a tightrope not worth walking IMO -- unless you are running a strong heavy in / heavy out method or a bacterial method like ZEOVit.

When you keep levels that low you are constantly teetering on the edge of starvation. You have to keep nutrients so extremely steady. Easier to do with an older biome. Impossible with a "newer" one say less than 3 years old. Add to this the constant risk of dinoflagellates.

Finally, even with a Hanna ULR test kit, your error range is .+-.02 for the phosphorus model and +-.04 for the phosphate model. Low range nitrate kits have even lower resolution. So while you may think you have an "acceptable" nutrient level, you might have none at all.

Unless you are overrun with GHA, keeping 5-15 NO3 and .05 to .1 of PO4 is a more modern consensus on nutrients.

Back to your corals... how old is your biome? Did you start with dead rock or live or a mix?

I use Hanna ULR for PO4. Salifert for nitrates. I have no GHA just a little diatoms, I believe.
My tank is ~7 mnths old. Started with dead rock with live sand and some ocean water. Added some live rock to DP and sump. Also added mud and sand from Florida to rubble in sump. Have sponges and feather dusters.
Dose daily 40ml of phytoplankton.
My staghorn was free from LFS. It was doing good for 2 months before starting to die off from the bottom.
The ORA ponape birdnest is suppose to be as start for beginners and suppose to be a little forgiving.

 

[ScottB]

I use Hanna ULR for PO4. Salifert for nitrates. I have no GHA just a little diatoms, I believe.
My tank is ~7 mnths old. Started with dead rock with live sand and some ocean water. Added some live rock to DP and sump. Also added mud and sand from Florida to rubble in sump. Have sponges and feather dusters.
Dose daily 40ml of phytoplankton.
My staghorn was free from LFS. It was doing good for 2 months before starting to die off from the bottom.
The ORA ponape birdnest is suppose to be as start for beginners and suppose to be a little forgiving.

SPS in a 7 month old system will be hit/miss -- even for some experienced reefers. And especially without a lot of old, live rock. Don't be hard on yourself, and don't buy anything expensive until you can keep something like that stag alive. Your biome is still changing with different bacterias and microfauna battling it out. Once that noise settles down and you keep some steady, modest nutrient, you should be good to go. That you have some sponge is a good sign.

Slowly adding some new fish and increasing feedings is the most fun & natural way to up your nutrients.

If you are quickly losing tissue from the bottom, you might want to check for acro eating flatworms on the live flesh. Very difficult to spot without magnification as they are nearly translucent. Google a pic.

 

[NDIrish]

Even if I dipped the corals in Bayer for 15 minutes I could still have flatworms?

 

[ScottB]

I dip with bayer also and baste them aggressively and that generally gets it done. I also inspect the bottom of the dipping jar closely to see if anything came off. Also inspect under magnification for eggs as no dip removes or kills eggs. Eggs hatch at 5-7 days.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Since I wrote those recommended values 16 years ago (they were widely accepted at the time and rarely did anyone succeed in driving nutrients too low), I have revised the recommendation..

My current recommendations at 2-10 ppm nitrate and 0.02-0.1 ppm phosphate.

 

[NDIrish]

Since I wrote those recommended values 16 years ago (they were widely accepted at the time and rarely did anyone succeed in driving nutrients too low), I have revised the recommendation..

My current recommendations at 2-10 ppm nitrate and 0.02-0.1 ppm phosphate.

With my nitrates @ 1 and PO4 @ 0, would you recommend me to dose PO4?
Used Hanna ULR for testing. I tested it twice to be sure. In meantime I shut off protein skimmer, should I turn it back on?

 

[NDIrish]

I dip with bayer also and baste them aggressively and that generally gets it done. I also inspect the bottom of the dipping jar closely to see if anything came off. Also inspect under magnification for eggs as no dip removes or kills eggs. Eggs hatch at 5-7 days.

I cut the white off my acropora, dipped in Bayer then glued on another piece of rubble. See what happens now.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

With my nitrates @ 1 and PO4 @ 0, would you recommend me to dose PO4?
Used Hanna ULR for testing. I tested it twice to be sure. In meantime I shut off protein skimmer, should I turn it back on?

I would feed more or dose phosphate and possibly nitrate.

 

[sixty_reefer]

A lot of good advice here

 

[NDIrish]

I would feed more or dose phosphate and possibly nitrate.

Ok. I'll turn protein back on. I already feed 4 to 5 times day, all frozen.
I'll get some loudwolf sodium nitrate and disodium phosphate.
Thanks for your help.

 

[ScottB]

With my nitrates @ 1 and PO4 @ 0, would you recommend me to dose PO4?
Used Hanna ULR for testing. I tested it twice to be sure. In meantime I shut off protein skimmer, should I turn it back on?

I like the gas exchange that a skimmer performs. You could do one of two things:
A) let it drain back into sump
B) run it dry meaning that the bubbles don’t make it to the cup.

you could also add fish and or food.

 

[NDIrish]

Since I wrote those recommended values 16 years ago (they were widely accepted at the time and rarely did anyone succeed in driving nutrients too low), I have revised the recommendation..

My current recommendations at 2-10 ppm nitrate and 0.02-0.1 ppm phosphate.

Thanks. That clears up a lot for me.

 

[NDIrish]

I like the gas exchange that a skimmer performs. You could do one of two things:
A) let it drain back into sump
B) run it dry meaning that the bubbles don’t make it to the cup.

you could also add fish and or food.

Ok. My sump has 4 sections:
1st is the intake from the DP and where my protein skimmer is.
2nd is where the overflow from the 1st with filter pad. Also this is where. my protein skimmer drains into.
3rd is my rubble area with a cup of Florida mud and sand.
4th is return.
As you see my protein skimmer is already draining into my sump.
I have 8 fish in my 125 that will get a little size. Feeding 4 times a day.
Would you cut back on amount of protein skimmer output?