Connecting two sumps/systems, need advice

[jessezm]

Need some advice from folks who have done this or have some experience with it: I have a 150g DT on my main floor with a basement sump that I am about to set up. I have a 90g frag tank that also has a sump. I want/need the systems to be connected. I have worked through the options in my head and arrived at two sumps, two return pumps (well three, but I'll get to that).

Before I get to explaining my reasoning, let me start with the end in mind, and just go ahead and ask - what is the best way to connect the two sumps to ensure that water flows between them and circulates throughout the entire system? This is important because of the need for filtration, temperature control, and beneficial nutrients/water chemistry to remain consistent in both tanks, as I only want to have heaters, probes, etc in one location.

Now I'll explain how I've thought this all through and arrived at the question:

Because of the layout of my "fish room" in the basement and where the frag tank has to be located vs the main sump (opposite sides of the room, about 6 ft apart), the plumbing run to and from the frag tank to the main sump would obstruct any ability to get around in the room due to the height of the drain line from the frag tank to the main sump (if I plumbed it that way). Second, the return pump would have to bring water up to the ceiling and back down to the frag tank on the other side of the room, which seems like a lot of unnecessary head loss.

I already have an extra sump lying around so I figured it would be much simpler to just set the frag tank up like a separate system with its own return pump and connect the sumps via one or more 1" pipes running close to floor level (these would be "protected" from foot traffic). This would have the added benefit of being able to separate the systems instantaneously if ever necessary by turning a ball valve(s).

Back to my main question, then - how best to connect the sumps to ensure water flows between setups? At this point, there is no water in the system, and I can alter the height of one or both sumps, so putting one slightly higher than the other is a possibility. Both are acrylic and easily drilled. Main sump is a 36" Eshopps adv300 and the other is an Emerald 34"

The main return pump is actually two Sicce 9.0 SDC pumps running in tandem for redundancy (with one powering a manifold as well for filters, chillers, etc), and the frag tank pump is a Cor 20.

I already have all the equipment so I'm not necessarily looking for the cheapest way about it, more trying to grapple with the space and layout limitations of the room. I simply can't have plumbing runs at waste height through the middle of the room and going along the walls is also very impractical.

Sorry for all the words, but your advice is much appreciated! If I haven't made myself clear, please just ask what else I should add. Thanks!

 

[CC13]

Back to my main question, then - how best to connect the sumps to ensure water flows between setups? At this point, there is no water in the system, and I can alter the height of one or both sumps, so putting one slightly higher than the other is a possibility. Both are acrylic and easily drilled. Main sump is a 36" Eshopps adv300 and the other is an Emerald 34"

I have a main floor tank and all filtration and sumps in the basement. I also have a fuge and multiple other tanks in the basement that are all plumbed together that drain into the main sump and then water is carried to the display and all systems via 1 Reeflo Hammerhead pump.

If I understand your question, you are basically setting up two systems. One system that includes the display and sump and then you are looking to setup a separate frag tank system but you want the option of transferring water between the main system and the frag system?

If the goal is to have the frag system as a hospital or isolation tank then I would keep it separated, but if your goal is to add to the total volume of your current system then why not just position the frag tank in a way that would allow water from exiting the system via an overflow and draining into the main system?

 

[jessezm]

Thanks for the response. The goal isn't a QT/hospital tank - it's to have one system with large total water volume and shared parameters/equipment. The reason I don't simply plumb it via an overflow from the main DT is simply space availability and layout in the sump room. If I did that, I'd have plumbing runs in the middle of the room that I couldn't step over. If I bring the water down to a sump under the frag tank, then move it across the floor at ground level basically, it would be easier to maneuver around (over) the connection.

So the question comes down to how do I ensure water moves sufficiently between the two sumps? If the water level is roughly even in both (which they should be based on the laws of gravity, etc, then will there not be any pressure moving water through the connection? Am I over-thinking this?

Someone suggested just to make sure to make the connection between the drain sections of the sumps, opposite of the returns. But I am also thinking it would make sense to make the connection run from the drain side of one sump to the return end of the other, since that might serve to pull water from one sump into the other. maybe?

 

[CC13]

Thanks for the response. The goal isn't a QT/hospital tank - it's to have one system with large total water volume and shared parameters/equipment. The reason I don't simply plumb it via an overflow from the main DT is simply space availability and layout in the sump room. If I did that, I'd have plumbing runs in the middle of the room that I couldn't step over. If I bring the water down to a sump under the frag tank, then move it across the floor at ground level basically, it would be easier to maneuver around (over) the connection.

So the question comes down to how do I ensure water moves sufficiently between the two sumps? If the water level is roughly even in both (which they should be based on the laws of gravity, etc, then will there not be any pressure moving water through the connection? Am I over-thinking this?

Someone suggested just to make sure to make the connection between the drain sections of the sumps, opposite of the returns. But I am also thinking it would make sense to make the connection run from the drain side of one sump to the return end of the other, since that might serve to pull water from one sump into the other. maybe?

I see what your saying.... I think the real issue lies in how to tune your pump from the frag tank to drain into my main system. Too slow and you get a flood. Too fast and the pump runs dry.

You could get some sort of transfer pump that would swap water at the same rate between systems.

 

[jessezm]

Ok, here's another thought that I had considered but decided against earlier. Feel free to argue in favor of it though! My 150g display tank upstairs has two X 1" drains. I was planning to use a Bean Animal style overflow and have them both drain to the main sump, but I suppose I could route one of the drains to the frag tank (which could be done from above, so the plumbing won't be in the way). Then I can connect the frag tank's sump to the main sump via a 1" pvc run, and just rely on the one main return pump.

The main issue I see with this scenario is relying on both drains to move water. With a Bean Animal, my understanding is that one standpipe is full siphon and tuned with a gate valve, while the second standpipe is more of an emergency line that doesn't drain a lot of water. In my case if I did the above, I would need to split the flow more evenly (by shutting the gate valve more than normal) between the two drains. Would that represent an issue at all? or a risk?

 

[CC13]

Ok, here's another thought that I had considered but decided against earlier. Feel free to argue in favor of it though! My 150g display tank upstairs has two X 1" drains. I was planning to use a Bean Animal style overflow and have them both drain to the main sump, but I suppose I could route one of the drains to the frag tank (which could be done from above, so the plumbing won't be in the way). Then I can connect the frag tank's sump to the main sump via a 1" pvc run, and just rely on the one main return pump.

The main issue I see with this scenario is relying on both drains to move water. With a Bean Animal, my understanding is that one standpipe is full siphon and tuned with a gate valve, while the second standpipe is more of an emergency line that doesn't drain a lot of water. In my case if I did the above, I would need to split the flow more evenly (by shutting the gate valve more than normal) between the two drains. Would that represent an issue at all? or a risk?

Ya that's a good idea as well.... I like that option far better than trying to tune the frag pump to exactly match the out flowing water with the exact amount of in flowing water which I think will be near impossible.

I think your right on the right path but yes, it would be ideal to have 1 drain as more of an emergency drain rather than having both being used heavily in case one fails. Another thing to consider is the tank water going into your frag tank will be carrying detritus and the water will be that of the display. Are you planning to add a skimmer in this system also?

Is it possible to take a picture of your basement so I can see what your working with?

 

[jessezm]

Kind of hard to follow but here are some pics of the room. It is about 9.5' X 10' (so 95 SF), with a 6' ceiling height at the bottom of the floor joists above. Yeah yeah, it's not to code, I know! I poured the concrete floor last month and painted it, and have been working on fitting out the room the last couple weeks. Going to start a forreal build thread soon I promise.

What is pictured is the frag tank on the right side of the room, the mixing station against the back wall, and opposite of the frag tank is a 60g cube that I haven't mentioned in this post yet - it is extra water volume and to make my water changes an easy turn of the valve operation (drains to the outside).

The main sump will be on the floor to the right of the 60 cube, and the frag sump is under the frag tank.

 

[jessezm]

Oh and to answer your question - I hadn't planned on using a skimmer in the frag sump since it will be connected. But that is a good point about sediment making it in there from the main tank. Since there will be frag racks in there, it will be a pain to siphon out...

going back to the question of tuning the frag tank return pump - as long as the pump is not going too hard, won't the sump levels naturally equalize? Or is it more complicated than that? would plumbing them together with two 1" lines, or even 1.5" lines be a safer route if I do go that route?