Considering the current sale... Apex vs Hydros ecosystem?

[Martingale]

I was looking at buying an X4/XP8 Pro Pack with 2x hydros dosers but it's been out of stock for a while.

I do own radions, AI primes, and AI nero pumps. I feel like these would continue to fall more into neptunes ecosystem over time with their recent merger.

For me, I feel the main allure of the Apex ecosystem versus the Hydros was the potential to add the Trident. This originally didn't sway me and I still leaned towards Hydros. Being able to purchase an Apex EL with a DOS at the discount currently makes my original decision going towards Hydros a bit more difficult, however.

The XP8 appears to be pretty high quality, but it's also newly released. There does appear to be a lot of quality complaints on things like the Trident and the EB832, however. I feel like the outlet controller is the primary reason I want a controller, and I'd like to feel like it can be reliable. I like the fan-less/orientation-less design of the XP8 and Hydros also just appears more water-resistant.

I am not too familiar with the quality of the hydros doser, but kamoer does appear to get good reviews. Even with the discount a DOS is more expensive than two Hydros dosers, but I'd assume the stepper motor doser is potentially worth it?

Thoughts?

 

[Jon's Reef]

List all of the things you would like it to do, then check it can do it and compare the prices.

One of the deal breakers for me is no conductivity (salinity) sensor on the hydros. The apex one gives me piece of mind that my ato and awc are running properly.

Another large influence is the testing price. For hydros you would use and Alkatronic. $1k upfront and diy reagents vs $600 upfront with $200 per year for reagents. Plus the trident gives Ca and Mg… which are not essential but if you dose it you should measure it. (I dose ATI 2 part (pt 1 alk, pt 2 Mg&Ca).

Dos dosers are nice. They are physically big, but you just run a single 1 link cable (power and data in 1) so no need to occupy an outlet. Also nice that you can have the same units for small dosing (2 part) and large water movement (awc).

 

[reefiniteasy]

Love my Hydros. It’s easy to use and adjust. Monitors and controls everything I need. If you have any questions, fee free to ask. I have many of the devices currently available in my collective.

 

[CincyReefer07]

List all of the things you would like it to do, then check it can do it and compare the prices.

One of the deal breakers for me is no conductivity (salinity) sensor on the hydros. The apex one gives me piece of mind that my ato and awc are running properly.

Another large influence is the testing price. For hydros you would use and Alkatronic. $1k upfront and diy reagents vs $600 upfront with $200 per year for reagents. Plus the trident gives Ca and Mg… which are not essential but if you dose it you should measure it. (I dose ATI 2 part (pt 1 alk, pt 2 Mg&Ca).

Dos dosers are nice. They are physically big, but you just run a single 1 link cable (power and data in 1) so no need to occupy an outlet. Also nice that you can have the same units for small dosing (2 part) and large water movement (awc).

Skip the alkatronic and go mastertronic which tests Alk, Cal, Mag, phosphate, nitrates, and another parameter they created OLI, with cheaper reagents than Neptune. And then with the hydros control x4, you get ORP and pH testing. Advantage to their alkatronic is how many times daily it can test Alk. Reason coralvue hasn’t come out with a salinity probe is because they aren’t reliable. But with how often hydros and coralvue comes out with new products for the hydros line, can almost guarantee something for that in the future will likely come out

 

[mnpackerfan38]

I went through a lot of the same decisions you did, and am now the proud owner of a Hydros X8 and X4 with temp and PH probes, along with their ATO pump, water sensor and leak detector. I've just set it up the last few days, but so far I'm really happy with my decision. One thing that swayed me was looking at the Hydros forums and watching some of their livestreams, Carlos from support seems to be very genuine and enthusiastic about their systems. While I'm sure I would have figured out the programming for the Apex, the Hydros system was very easy for me.

Another factor for me is I have a small Waterbox Cube 20 and not a lot of room in the stand, and it seemed cable management was more of a nightmare with Apex. Having everything easy to mount inside my stand was a big draw with the Hydros. I like that their ATO pump for instance doesn't need an AC adapter, the X4 connects directly to the X8 and doesn't need a power adapter, etc...those things add up when dealing with a small space.

The main positive with the Neptune is the Trident, and I do wish there was an alternative around the same price with the Hydros. I don't think I'd consider a Mastertronic unless I upgrade my tank down the road. As far as salinity, Carlos has said the current probes aren't great, but that they were working on their own solution. I think he said that a while ago so maybe it won't come after all, but I'm optimistic.

 

[Jon's Reef]

Just to put the costs on the Trident and Mastertronic together:
Trident:
Upfront: $640
Reagent: $210 for 1 year, 1460 Alk tests, 730 Mg and Ca tests
Maintenance: $200 every 2 years to maintenance exchange (exchange for a refurbed unit, $100 for diy maintenance kit)

Mastertronic:
Upfront: $1300
Recommended Reagent per manual:
Alk: $15/ 31 tests... 1 per day = $176
Ca: $13/ 32 tests... 1 per day = $148
Mg: $23/ 50 tests... 1 per day = $168
NO3: $27/ 70 tests... 1 per day = $140
PO4: $29/ 150 tests... 1 per day = $70
Recommended Maintenance per manual:
Replace 2 needles and syringe monthly: $28 per 6 needles/ 4 syringes ($125 per yr)
Replace vials every 6-8 months: $7 per vial (~$70-$168 per year)

Of course you may not test as frequently, but the benefit of auto testing is to see trends (need a few measurements to see a trend develop). Recent forum posts show you can also reduce trident testing (ex reduce to 2 alk, 1 ca mg per day means $105 for reagent per year)

Neptune salinity probe performs well for trend analysis if used with proper flow (VCA SPS kit or set a pump to flow on it).

It is hard to quantify the other apex vs hydros costs as you really need to determine what you want it to do... then compare the module cost. In particular, check the number of power outlets/ power ports as the EB832 has 8 outlets, 2 24V ports and 3 1link. Example: DOS has 2 pumps and uses one 1link port. 1 hydros dosing pump requires 1 drive port or 1 outlet.

Also note that # of apex users is much higher, so number of online complaints will scale exponentially.

Don't base your descision on what a vendor may release in the future, rather what they have now. For example, the original marketing for the Ecotech Versa said it could be used for ATO.... but the rumored mobius compatible level sensors never materialized.

 

[inktomi]

As much as a person (Carlos was mentioned) I also wouldn't base your choice on someone who you've interacted with. People move around, and it would be a shame if the next person wasn't the same from your perspective.

 

[mnpackerfan38]

Some really helpful info in this thread. If I had a bigger tank and knew this sale was going on, I probably would have went with the Apex and later buy the Trident. I am really happy with my Hydros for my needs, but if you want the auto testing that the Trident provides, Apex definitely seems like the way to go. A salinity probe may be coming to Hydros, but that is a good point about not waiting on it as plans can change. I don't think Hydros has any intention of competing with the Trident at this point, and the Mastertronic seems like a so-so option.

 

[Tamberav]

I have apex... it is okay...some things work better then others. For example, their auto feeder is atrocious. I think the ATO is pretty meh vs Tunze too. The fusion is nice. The DOS is easy to program but huge. Apex is very clunky and cheap feeling. I am not sure why they had to cheap out on the components so much for the price. It could have been so much better and so much cleaner in terms of cable management and shape.

You take a look at GHL and hydros form factor... then look at Apex and... it's like.. what the heck? Sort of like if you took a smart phone but put it inside of this instead and painted it orange.

It's not bad... it does what it is supposed to. Just ykno... could have been so much more.

 

[BanjoBandito]

I’m on the fence too….I’m trying to figure out if I can hook my photon LED into a hydros. They sell an apex chip so in theory “maybe” (with a breakout box). I wouldn’t measure anything by complaints due to the difference in install base.

 

[n2585722]

I’m on the fence too….I’m trying to figure out if I can hook my photon LED into a hydros. They sell an apex chip so in theory “maybe” (with a breakout box). I wouldn’t measure anything by complaints due to the difference in install base.

Do the lights have a 0-10v control input? If so what kind of connector do they have?

 

[areefer01]

It was already suggested above to make a list of requirements of your needs. Then your future needs. Then out of that list mark or note what is a deal breaker. Now you have something to work with and compare between over the counter and DIY (pi, audrino).

Now let me give you another option. Use both. That is what I do. I don't let my ecosystem prevent me from integration if it works. Sicce - connects to Apex via IoTA. Kessil refugium light again connects to the Apex via IoTA. Both work amazingly well. In fact it is a huge quality of life improvement. Enter Hydros. I was running a pair of Maxspect XF280 Gyres. One busted - wires separated from the motor block so I removed it and canned it for spare parts. This is huge and makes cleaning so much easier. I wanted more flow but XF280's are not really around and the controller unit doesn't work with the XF330 or later models let alone Icecap's.

Icecap 4000 gyre + Hydros LE accepts existing XF280 gyre AND removes 1 power brick Install the phone app, setup schedule, flow, etc and Bob's your Uncle. Works well. Now the Apex connection is the 0-10 volt connection which lets me add feed, water change, and assessment connectivity

TL;DR - use both and support products that allow integration. Shy away from those that don't.

 

[BanjoBandito]

Do the lights have a 0-10v control input? If so what kind of connector do they have?

ReefBreeders

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I don’t know it’s this for the apex, so can it be used with hydros. I have the remote version and I’d rather have app control, even if basic.

 

[n2585722]

ReefBreeders

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I don’t know it’s this for the apex, so can it be used with hydros. I have the remote version and I’d rather have app control, even if basic.

The X4 has 4 0-10v output where you can control variable lights. I use the to control my DIY lights but I had to get 0-10v to PWM converters to convert the 0-10v output from the X4 to the PWM input of my lights. This cable might work for you since the 0-10v inputs and 0-10v outputs of the Hydros have the same pinouts the cables can be used for either inputs or outputs. The Wave Engine 0-10v ports have the same pinouts also. https://www.coralvue.com/hydros/hydros-waveengine-apx-link .

Here is a link to the pinout for the Hydros 0-10v ports https://forum.coralvuehydros.com/threads/0-10v-port-pinout-for-diy.314/ .

 

[WVNed]

I have a Hydros X4, XS and 2 WIFI power strips. I am about to add 2 more. My smart outlets have become unreliable so I will replace them. The longer I have it the more things I think up for it to do.
I do not seek to add things to it that have their own controllers like most people. I use it to do things so I don't have to.
RODI fill and flush, ATO, AWC, pH control of a kalk reactor, heater control, ORP backup monitoring of my Milwauke ozone controller, some of the heaters. I have a sensor on the 5 gallon bucket I collect skimmate in from 2 large skimmers. When it's full, they shut off and I get notified.
What I like best is it doesn't take hours of my life to make it do what I want. The programming is there for a lot of common tasks and you just set a few options.

 

[C_AWOL]

I own and use both a few apex and one hydros 4 currently and recently added an xp8 to my collective
I absolutely adore the feel and build quality of the main control unit and xp8 for the hydros (not so much the wifi bar though) and plan on purchasing more for future tanks.
Only thing I can immediately think about that I like more currently for apex is the iota compatibility for my ap9x lights and the fact that I'm more used to the apex interface (not saying the hydros one is bad by any means)

 

[blaxsun]

Neptune for the win (at least in my mind!)

Yes, there are a few 'quirks' with the odd product - but if you know how to work around them it's not really an issue. And if you change the Trident schedule the reagent cost drops by half.

I just installed the Neptune ATK today and it's vastly superior to the Tunze in terms of functionality. I've used both, but the Neptune has 3 failsafes (not 2) and I'm actually running 4 through an additional sensor - plus all the custom programming like limiting runtimes, being able to connect and tie-in a leak detection sensor, etc. Not to mention being able to setup alarms to let you know when the RO needs to be refilled, etc.

 

[BanjoBandito]

The X4 has 4 0-10v output where you can control variable lights. I use the to control my DIY lights but I had to get 0-10v to PWM converters to convert the 0-10v output from the X4 to the PWM input of my lights. This cable might work for you since the 0-10v inputs and 0-10v outputs of the Hydros have the same pinouts the cables can be used for either inputs or outputs. The Wave Engine 0-10v ports have the same pinouts also. https://www.coralvue.com/hydros/hydros-waveengine-apx-link .

Here is a link to the pinout for the Hydros 0-10v ports https://forum.coralvuehydros.com/threads/0-10v-port-pinout-for-diy.314/ .

Ok thanks for the follow up.

 

[SPS2020]

I have a hybrid setup with the Apex and use DOS for auto water changes only. RedSea ReefDose 4 for dosing "2 part" (+ mag and Part C). I use a Kamoer for ATO combined with a Neptune optic sensor in the sump to turn off the Kamoer if it gets too high. However, I have evaporation pretty well nailed down and the Kamoer does a good job.

 

[BanjoBandito]

Neptune for the win (at least in my mind!)

Yes, there are a few 'quirks' with the odd product - but if you know how to work around them it's not really an issue. And if you change the Trident schedule the reagent cost drops by half.

I just installed the Neptune ATK today and it's vastly superior to the Tunze in terms of functionality. I've used both, but the Neptune has 3 failsafes (not 2) and I'm actually running 4 through an additional sensor - plus all the custom programming like limiting runtimes, being able to connect and tie-in a leak detection sensor, etc. Not to mention being able to setup alarms to let you know when the RO needs to be refilled, etc.

I think Hydros can and will be good, but the apex has them in sheer capability and modules avail. The price point is still a challenge though. 750 to walk in the door is a steep bar tab. I guess the EL is 500 but you lose some things.