Constant battle with nitrates

[Rob1982]

Hi all, this is my first post here so please be gentle on me

I've had my tank for about 15 months. Its a 170 display with a 40 litre sump. I have a reasonable amount of live rock and a crushed coral sand bed. Bio load is low... Two clown and one yellow eyes tang, corals... 4x hairy green mushroom and one toadstool leather that doesn't want to stand up and looks a little sorry for itself.

Almost since day 1 I've battled with high nitrates and I've tried so much to try to lower it including:
* frequent water changes
* nitrate removal products
* growing chaeto algae (think the water flow may have been too high because it just fell apart in the sump and didn't grow at all).

I'm mixing my own rodi water with redsea reef salt.

All other parameters are OK as far as I can tell:
Dkh: 10
Ph 8.4
Nitrite: 0
Amonia: 0
Phosphate: 0.25
Nitrate: >50

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Big G]

Welcome to R2R!
Have had good luck on new-ish tanks using a mix of MarinePure 8"x8" plates and cheato + sea lettuce with a grow light in my sumps. But later, the MP had to go as it caused both phosphate and nitrate to drop to zero

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Welcome to the group. Love to see pix of the tank. A little more on the set up may help. Skimmer, filter socks, heavy feeding, clean up crew, etc. Definitely does not sound like anything that can’t be fixed or need to worry too much about

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

My nitrates as of yesterday were 20ppm got out sulfur denitrator in 7-12 days should drop to 5ppm . Then put denitrator away

Forgot, welcome comrade

 

[Rob1982]

Welcome to the group. Love to see pix of the tank. A little more on the set up may help. Skimmer, filter socks, heavy feeding, clean up crew, etc. Definitely does not sound like anything that can’t be fixed or need to worry too much about

I have a bubble magus skimmer running in the sump. Pulls out a fair amount of gunk every week. I have a mesh filter sock that I change about once to twice a week to catch the big stuff. I feed a small pinch of pellet food every 2 days. In a clean up crew I have two cleaner shrimp, two hermet crabs and two nasarius snails. I do have a bit of an outbreak of brittle stars in the tank as well.

 

[ccombs]

Welcome to R2R! Like you, I struggled with nitrates and they can be very frustrating. Best of luck, you are already getting some good advice, let us know if you need anything.

Also-many people have high nitrates in their tank on the forum. While sometimes indicative of an underlying issue, sometimes it is just part of your reef.

Watch this video from Rich Ross about his wacky parameters at times. Very interesting.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/richard-ross-the-right-kind-of-lazy-macna-2017.358042/

The hard part is determining if you have a true issue at the core of your system or if you are ok.

Finally let's get @Rick.45cal over here. When it comes to higher nutrients, he seems to be the guy that knows about nitrates and phosphates.

 

[touchstone88]

Hi all, this is my first post here so please be gentle on me

I've had my tank for about 15 months. Its a 170 display with a 40 litre sump. I have a reasonable amount of live rock and a crushed coral sand bed. Bio load is low... Two clown and one yellow eyes tang, corals... 4x hairy green mushroom and one toadstool leather that doesn't want to stand up and looks a little sorry for itself.

Almost since day 1 I've battled with high nitrates and I've tried so much to try to lower it including:
* frequent water changes
* nitrate removal products
* growing chaeto algae (think the water flow may have been too high because it just fell apart in the sump and didn't grow at all).

I'm mixing my own rodi water with redsea reef salt.

All other parameters are OK as far as I can tell:
Dkh: 10
Ph 8.4
Nitrite: 0
Amonia: 0
Phosphate: 0.25
Nitrate: >50

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

The same happened to me when I last used Chaeto- my tank was nutrient deficient, apparently the Vibrant was out-competing the Chaeto in terms of nutrient removal, just as GFO would outcompete Vibrant and Chaeto.
A couple questions to consider:
What Nitrate Removal products have you used?
How Frequent of water changes?
Did you begin with Virgin dry rock (it appears pretty clean) and did you seed with other Live Rock to establish some biodiversity?

Not that its a huge deal at the moment, but your Alk seems a bit high.
What about:
Salinity
Ca
Mg
Temp

FWIW: I do my best to avoid additives (try as I might). Frequent use of Nitrate-removal additives is like cheating the tank of independently completing its nitrogen cycle IMHO.

I've found Cermedia an excellent way of increasing biological filtration- my sump has the 8x8x4 block, 2gal of spheres and half of the 8x8x1 plate- for my 90g SPS tank with a FoxFace, 2 WW Ocellaris, 2 cleaner shrimp, various Trocha, Nassarius, and 18 SPS and a Goniopora.

In the past, Brightwells Mb7 has been useful- more recently I've had great results using Dr. Tim's products- BE SURE TO USE SEVERAL AIR STONES if you go that route. Currently I run Vibrant- and my Lifereef svs3-24 and a Jebao return pump- 2100gph. With head-loss the entire 90g of the DT passes through the Mechanical and Bio Filtration in the sump ~21 times per hour. The general consensus amongst folks is that a person's total DT water volume (assuming a wavemaker or pumps eliminates dead spots etc) pass through his or her sump 7-12 times an hour, SPS tanks favor the latter.

Whatever you may do to nudge your tank in the direction of naturally occurring biological processes should be your goal IMHO. Maybe a Bio-catalyst like Fritz or Dr. Tims will get you started or reset, introduce Cermedia, in a couple months seed with Tisbee pods from a reputable vendor.

I look forward to an update!

 

[Mjrenz]

I had trouble with nitrates until I put a deep sand bed in my refugium, after about three months my nitrates dropped to nearly 0 and have stayed there ever since. If you do a deep sand bed in a refugium just make sure not to disturb the sand or put any critters in there that can disturb it

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Hi all, this is my first post here so please be gentle on me

I've had my tank for about 15 months. Its a 170 display with a 40 litre sump. I have a reasonable amount of live rock and a crushed coral sand bed. Bio load is low... Two clown and one yellow eyes tang, corals... 4x hairy green mushroom and one toadstool leather that doesn't want to stand up and looks a little sorry for itself.

Almost since day 1 I've battled with high nitrates and I've tried so much to try to lower it including:
* frequent water changes
* nitrate removal products
* growing chaeto algae (think the water flow may have been too high because it just fell apart in the sump and didn't grow at all).

I'm mixing my own rodi water with redsea reef salt.

All other parameters are OK as far as I can tell:
Dkh: 10
Ph 8.4
Nitrite: 0
Amonia: 0
Phosphate: 0.25
Nitrate: >50

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Also there's members with 80+ NO3, with corals and doing great.

 

[KrisReef]

Touchstone88's recommendation to go with biological methods to fix this is the right direction to move. Let nature do the work that nature does best.

Do you know the source of your nitrates? If you have been feeding that lightly since the tank was set up I would guess that you started with live rock that came with a lot of nitrates and that is still your main source for it? Same for phosphate too.

Frequent water changes should replace the nutrients needed for algae to grow, but it can also potentially impede the establishment of the biofilter. Get some microbial help and let those products work in the tank before you do another water change. Sometimes less is much better. GL

 

[Big G]

I feed a small pinch of pellet food every 2 days

Consider feeding frozen foods and making your fish a "smoothie". Whenever I use pellets in my QT's the tanks get real dirty and nitrates jump.

Get a variety of frozen fish cubes; the more the better. Place one of each flavor in a tupperware or other similar container. Place in the fridge and let "slump." Pour off the excess liquid. The mix will stay good in your fridge for several days. Can also add a couple of drops of fish vitamins to the mix: Selcon or Zoecon.

 

[Mjrenz]

Consider feeding frozen foods and making your fish a "smoothie". Whenever I use pellets in my QT's the tanks get real dirty and nitrates jump.

Get a variety of frozen fish cubes; the more the better. Place one of each flavor in a tupperware or other similar container. Place in the fridge and let "slump." Pour off the excess liquid. The mix will stay good in your fridge for several days. Can also add a couple of drops of fish vitamins to the mix: Selcon or Zoecon.

With my dsb I surprisingly didn't even get any noticeable increase in nitrates after I found out my son had been dumping over a tablespoon of pellets in the tank every day for over a week. Phosphates were another story though

 

[Goodair]

test your water supply

 

[Rob1982]

test your water supply

I've tested the water as it domes out of my rodi unit and it has a reading of 0 nitrates and 0 doc.

Consider feeding frozen foods and making your fish a "smoothie". Whenever I use pellets in my QT's the tanks get real dirty and nitrates jump.

Get a variety of frozen fish cubes; the more the better. Place one of each flavor in a tupperware or other similar container. Place in the fridge and let "slump." Pour off the excess liquid. The mix will stay good in your fridge for several days. Can also add a couple of drops of fish vitamins to the mix: Selcon or Zoecon.

Interestingly I was told by the lfs to stop feeding frozen as it bumps nitrates even higher.

Touchstone88's recommendation to go with biological methods to fix this is the right direction to move. Let nature do the work that nature does best.

Do you know the source of your nitrates? If you have been feeding that lightly since the tank was set up I would guess that you started with live rock that came with a lot of nitrates and that is still your main source for it? Same for phosphate too.

Frequent water changes should replace the nutrients needed for algae to grow, but it can also potentially impede the establishment of the biofilter. Get some microbial help and let those products work in the tank before you do another water change. Sometimes less is much better. GL

I did start with live rock from my lfs. I guess that could be the source. Other than that I have no idea of the source. Would it be worth removing some of them and rinsing them through in rodi water or some equivalent?

My concern at the moment is my leather coral that does not look well at all.

Thanks for all the input so far. I'm going to read up on some of these in the next day or so.

 

[laverda]

50ppm is high but not the big deal some people make it out to be. I would aim to lower both you nitrates and phosphates. 20-25 is really fine in my experience. Do you have any algae growing? You cheeto may need iron and better light to grow. I have found inexpensive red and blue led grow lights work great for growing algae’s of all types. My mangroves love them as well. You want to test for iron before dosing it.
There is a thread here on the DSR method which has a spread sheet to calculate dosing amounts. You can just use the iron portion if you wish.
I feed heavily 4-5 times a day typically, have 30 fish including a 12” tang, have not done a water change in 2 years and my nitrates are at 20-25 in my 300 gallon mixed reef. I can easily reduce my nitrates further by increasing the light cycle on my ATSs if I so desired. My corals are happy and I have no algae in my display, so I am happy. My sump has lots of algae.

 

[Gonebad395]

Welcome to R2R how often are you doing water changes sorry if I missed it have a full house today

 

[Act1n1c_L1fe]

Hi all, this is my first post here so please be gentle on me

I've had my tank for about 15 months. Its a 170 display with a 40 litre sump. I have a reasonable amount of live rock and a crushed coral sand bed. Bio load is low... Two clown and one yellow eyes tang, corals... 4x hairy green mushroom and one toadstool leather that doesn't want to stand up and looks a little sorry for itself.

Almost since day 1 I've battled with high nitrates and I've tried so much to try to lower it including:
* frequent water changes
* nitrate removal products
* growing chaeto algae (think the water flow may have been too high because it just fell apart in the sump and didn't grow at all).

I'm mixing my own rodi water with redsea reef salt.

All other parameters are OK as far as I can tell:
Dkh: 10
Ph 8.4
Nitrite: 0
Amonia: 0
Phosphate: 0.25
Nitrate: >50

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Grow some cheato in your Fuge or get an algae scrubber

 

[Rob1982]

50ppm is high but not the big deal some people make it out to be. I would aim to lower both you nitrates and phosphates. 20-25 is really fine in my experience. Do you have any algae growing? You cheeto may need iron and better light to grow. I have found inexpensive red and blue led grow lights work great for growing algae’s of all types. My mangroves love them as well. You want to test for iron before dosing it.
There is a thread here on the DSR method which has a spread sheet to calculate dosing amounts. You can just use the iron portion if you wish.
I feed heavily 4-5 times a day typically, have 30 fish including a 12” tang, have not done a water change in 2 years and my nitrates are at 20-25 in my 300 gallon mixed reef. I can easily reduce my nitrates further by increasing the light cycle on my ATSs if I so desired. My corals are happy and I have no algae in my display, so I am happy. My sump has lots of algae.

I have a bit of an outbreak of purple slime algae in the display. I have nothing in the sump now as the chaeto just fell apart and never grew.

Welcome to R2R how often are you doing water changes sorry if I missed it have a full house today

I've been doing 50l water changes every 2 weeks.

 

[touchstone88]

I have a bit of an outbreak of purple slime algae in the display. I have nothing in the sump now as the chaeto just fell apart and never grew.



I've been doing 50l water changes every 2 weeks.

Almost 30% water volume at once might be stressful to already stressed livestock. Maybe try 25l or less once a week. Any quick fix additive might temporarily reduce nitrates but does not address the underlying issues- with that said- I'm with Krisreef's idea- some microbial help and let the tank be. It'll build up some algae, go through the "uglies" (just as likely not) and by following a kind of 'neglect' /minimalist approach to maintenance, the tank will take care of itself.

Peoples suggestions are following this same idea. A Deep Sand Bed/Fuge provides anaerobic regions- that help breakdown nutrients. The same end may be accomplished using the Cermedia Block, its 4" deep and also develops anaerobic regions over time.

Folks have reported dosing Dr. Tim's and losing their fish in the process- this bacteria temporarily drops O2 levels in the tank, so get a couple air pumps and air stones to supplement. If you feel like getting fancy, Rinse/dip the Cermedia block with RODI water, then with a powerhead/airstone in a 5g bucket filled with 30% DT water and 70% FSW, dose an appropriate amount of Dr. Tims- considering the surface area of the block- you could probably get away with dumping the whole bottle. Let it sit for a day and then transfer everything to your sump. I'm curious what others think of this idea. I did it with Cermedia spheres and it worked wonderfully.

Then in a few months (might not need to wait that long) go ahead and seed the sump- the cermedia block with Tisbee pods. Another option worth considering- after running dr tims and letting things settle, call the folks at ARC and rather than ordering a bottle of purple or pink helix, ask for some rubble. Then introduce said rubble to your sump with the media block and you'll have added considerable bio-diversity to your system.

https://store.drtimsaquatics.com/On...-for-Reef-Nano-and-Seahorse-Aquaria_p_96.html

https://www.algaebarn.com/shop/aquarium-supplies/ceramic-media-plate/

https://arcreef.com/about/

 

[Big G]

Interestingly I was told by the lfs to stop feeding frozen as it bumps nitrates even higher.

Yep it will if you don't "slump" the frozen and pour off the excess liquid both your phosphates and nitrates will climb. I've actually on purpose not strained off the excess to intentionally raise the phosphates and nitrates a bit in the tank a time or two.

I actually take the "slumped" food and dump it into a fine strainer and let the excess liquid drip out as much as possible. Then, invert the strainer into a fresh, empty container, add a couple of drops of Selcon or Zeocon - mix a bit. And that's what ends up in the fridge to feed the fish.

Usually keep about 7-8 different frozen fish cubes in the freezer to make up the "smoothie": mysis, brine shrimp, cyclops, chopped clams, mussels, seaweed, krill, etc. Very easy to make and this ensures the fish are getting a wide variety of vitamins, fiber and other nutrients to keep them colorful and healthy.