Convince me not to get one...

[Parent_usmc]

I'm leaning heavily on purchasing an apex system at the end of this month.. I have found that when I went to a larger system I am struggling slightly on keeping my parameters where I want them.

I would love to be able to have real time data on ph, salinity, and other things like my ato ( I fight with remembering to fill it )

For anyone who has one and takes advantage of all its features do you have any insight or comments I would appreciate it!

 

[PBnJOnWheat]

I'm leaning heavily on purchasing an apex system at the end of this month.. I have found that when I went to a larger system I am struggling slightly on keeping my parameters where I want them.

I would love to be able to have real time data on ph, salinity, and other things like my ato ( I fight with remembering to fill it )

For anyone who has one and takes advantage of all its features do you have any insight or comments I would appreciate it!

You have to buy one. Case closed.

 

[Hersheyb]

wouldn't reef without a controller now... too spoil...

 

[SuncrestReef]

I'm probably one of the biggest Apex fans here. I have written a whole series of Apex programming tutorials and other Apex articles. See https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/authors/suncrestreef.93940/

Here are some of the things my Apex does for me:

• Control 2-part dosing based on Trident automated alk, cal, and mag test results
• Detect power outages to shut down non-critical devices to prolong power on my battery backup
• Control dual heaters in my sump, and a heater in my saltwater mixing station
• Monitor water level in the refugium if chaeto clogs the drain pipe and turn off the pump to prevent overflows
• Adjust my Gyres for different flow rates and directions throughout the day and night
• Monitor water flow rate through my carbon & GFO reactors, as well as return pipe
• Turn off my UV sterilizer when water flow goes below 250 gallons/hour
• Shut off the skimmer when the Avast skimmate locker is full and send me an alert
• Clean the skimmer neck every 6 hours with the Avast Swabbie
• Control auto feeder when I'm away from home
• Shut down pumps and send an alert if a leak is detected in my sump cabinet or the carpet below my tank
• Daily automatic water changes
• Remote ATO pump in my garage mixing station feeds water to my tank in the living room
• Alert me when RO/DI tank is low, or too full
• Alert me when saltwater storage tank is too low, and shut down auto water change until full
• Turn on a cooling fan when temps are too high in summer
• Keep track of all water test results and produce graphs over time
• All alerts are sent to both email and text message

I'm sure there are things I'm forgetting.
To do all of these things, I have the following modules and add-ons, so I've invested substantially more than the Apex base unit:

• Trident
• 2 x DOS
• 3 x FMM modules
• PM2
• PMK
• DDR
• COR-20
• 2 x PMUP
• WAV
• AFS
• Breakout box
• IceCap Gyre module
• 5 optical sensors
• 2 leak detectors
• 5 float switches
• 1 extra temperature probe
• 1 extra conductivity probe
• Swabbie skimmer neck cleaner
• Avast skimmate locker
• Auxiliary power adapter for Apex to detect power failures

For me, it provides peace of mind that I wouldn't want to live without.

 

[jda]

I will do the contrary... if you cannot do this without an Apex, then you won't be able to to it with one. This might seem harsh and few want to hear this, but they perform best when just monitoring and alerting and you still have to do nearly all of the work that you are not doing now.

I had one (older model). It failed. I wrote my own in j2ee and ruby that was truly enterprise class backed it's self up and never failed, but I took it down too. I have rock-solid equipment and I know how to maintain my tank, so I have no need. The hobby probes were the least reliable thing in my system - the enterprise class probes that I used for my home made system were much better, but still not great.

Here is a more detailed post on my "controller" experience:

If Santa sent Jda an Apex "Controller" for Christmas!

Lol funny thread. JDA uses Phoenix bulbs iirc I think you’re right. Well looks like I don’t know him either!

www.reef2reef.com

To each their own, but it is just another diaper to change for me that I don't need.

 

[Parent_usmc]

I will do the contrary... if you cannot do this without an Apex, then you won't be able to to it with one. This might seem harsh and few want to hear this, but they perform best when just monitoring and alerting and you still have to do nearly all of the work that you are not doing now.

I had one (older model). It failed. I wrote my own in j2ee and ruby that was truly enterprise class backed it's self up and never failed, but I took it down too. I have rock-solid equipment and I know how to maintain my tank, so I have no need. The hobby probes were the least reliable thing in my system - the enterprise class probes that I used for my home made system were much better, but still not great.

Here is a more detailed post on my "controller" experience:

If Santa sent Jda an Apex "Controller" for Christmas!

Lol funny thread. JDA uses Phoenix bulbs iirc I think you’re right. Well looks like I don’t know him either!

www.reef2reef.com

To each their own, but it is just another diaper to change for me that I don't need.

I understand entirely. When I have my 32 gallon biocube I was on top of weekly water changes and cleaning. Since I upgraded to my red sea 250 most of my issues are time related with work. So I have neglected some basic things. Not Intentionally just life. But thank you for your feed back

 

[dwest]

I think the monitoring when I travel makes it worth it.

 

[Parent_usmc]

I'm probably one of the biggest Apex fans here. I have written a whole series of Apex programming tutorials and other Apex articles. See https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/authors/suncrestreef.93940/

Here are some of the things my Apex does for me:

• Control 2-part dosing based on Trident automated alk, cal, and mag test results
• Detect power outages to shut down non-critical devices to prolong power on my battery backup
• Control dual heaters in my sump, and a heater in my saltwater mixing station
• Monitor water level in the refugium if chaeto clogs the drain pipe and turn off the pump to prevent overflows
• Adjust my Gyres for different flow rates and directions throughout the day and night
• Monitor water flow rate through my carbon & GFO reactors, as well as return pipe
• Turn off my UV sterilizer when water flow goes below 250 gallons/hour
• Shut off the skimmer when the Avast skimmate locker is full and send me an alert
• Clean the skimmer neck every 6 hours with the Avast Swabbie
• Control auto feeder when I'm away from home
• Shut down pumps and send an alert if a leak is detected in my sump cabinet or the carpet below my tank
• Daily automatic water changes
• Remote ATO pump in my garage mixing station feeds water to my tank in the living room
• Alert me when RO/DI tank is low, or too full
• Alert me when saltwater storage tank is too low, and shut down auto water change until full
• Turn on a cooling fan when temps are too high in summer
• Keep track of all water test results and produce graphs over time
• All alerts are sent to both email and text message

I'm sure there are things I'm forgetting.
To do all of these things, I have the following modules and add-ons, so I've invested substantially more than the Apex base unit:

• Trident
• 2 x DOS
• 3 x FMM modules
• PM2
• PMK
• DDR
• COR-20
• 2 x PMUP
• WAV
• AFS
• Breakout box
• IceCap Gyre module
• 5 optical sensors
• 2 leak detectors
• 5 float switches
• 1 extra temperature probe
• 1 extra conductivity probe
• Swabbie skimmer neck cleaner
• Avast skimmate locker
• Auxiliary power adapter for Apex to detect power failures

For me, it provides peace of mind that I wouldn't want to live without.

Wow! Those are all really great reasons and definitely things I would like to have haha

 

[User1]

I will do the contrary... if you cannot do this without an Apex, then you won't be able to to it with one. This might seem harsh and few want to hear this, but they perform best when just monitoring and alerting and you still have to do nearly all of the work that you are not doing now.

I had one (older model). It failed. I wrote my own in j2ee and ruby that was truly enterprise class backed it's self up and never failed, but I took it down too. I have rock-solid equipment and I know how to maintain my tank, so I have no need. The hobby probes were the least reliable thing in my system - the enterprise class probes that I used for my home made system were much better, but still not great.

Here is a more detailed post on my "controller" experience:

If Santa sent Jda an Apex "Controller" for Christmas!

Lol funny thread. JDA uses Phoenix bulbs iirc I think you’re right. Well looks like I don’t know him either!

www.reef2reef.com

To each their own, but it is just another diaper to change for me that I don't need.

I don't think it is harsh. It is no different than other items that hobbyists think are essential to a successful tank be it a controller, salt mix type, skimmer, Ca reactor, etc. Learn to walk first then take it from there. So no, not harsh.

On the other hand a properly setup controller can do wonders and alert you of danger. Coincidently an improperly setup controller will not. I'm not going to spend other peoples money but a controller is something I've always had but it wasn't the first purchase.

 

[southerntnreefer]

I just configured my new build thats finally running for Alexa control. Simple for now, but as i add on will get greater. I can ask it for a status report and can ask it to feed the fish to initiate my feed mode.

 

[paintman]

I will do the contrary... if you cannot do this without an Apex, then you won't be able to to it with one. This might seem harsh and few want to hear this, but they perform best when just monitoring and alerting and you still have to do nearly all of the work that you are not doing now.

I had one (older model). It failed. I wrote my own in j2ee and ruby that was truly enterprise class backed it's self up and never failed, but I took it down too. I have rock-solid equipment and I know how to maintain my tank, so I have no need. The hobby probes were the least reliable thing in my system - the enterprise class probes that I used for my home made system were much better, but still not great.

Here is a more detailed post on my "controller" experience:

If Santa sent Jda an Apex "Controller" for Christmas!

Lol funny thread. JDA uses Phoenix bulbs iirc I think you’re right. Well looks like I don’t know him either!

www.reef2reef.com

To each their own, but it is just another diaper to change for me that I don't need.

Couldn't agree with this more ^ Never understood why someone would take a return pump such as the COR15 and solely rely on a controller to run it. What happens if the controller fails?
Seems to me it's more of an ego thing for the gadget crowd. Or a subsitute for a lack of something somewhere else.
Kind of like a Redneck with small $#@% syndrome, they always have a big 4 wheel drive truck.

 

[jda]

Just remember that they are tools and no more. They are not magic. They are also no substitute for getting good equipment... I don't think that enough people get this until it is too late and they had a few failures that cost them. I am amazed that people will spend thousands in a "controller" and all of the modules and then cheap out and buy a Chinese knock-off piece of equipment that is destined to fail early - quality equipment does not even have to cost a lot of money. There is a piece of equipment for every application that has decade+ of reliability, which is a good place to start.

 

[User1]

Couldn't agree with this more ^ Never understood why someone would take a return pump such as the COR15 and solely rely on a controller to run it. What happens if the controller fails?
Seems to me it's more of an ego thing for the gadget crowd. Or a subsitute for a lack of something somewhere else.
Kind of like a Redneck with small $#@% syndrome, they always have a big 4 wheel drive truck.

If the Apex fails the Cor 15 runs. If the energy bar (eb832) 1-link port fails that is running the Cor 15 then yes, the pump would stop. There is a clear difference here of what if. This is no different than if the power strip or gcfi or other smart outlet failed that had a return pump or other critical item plugged in. Any pump be it an abyzz or other. Point here this isn't anything unique to Neptune. If you are a user of Cor pumps, and I am one, then there are ways to mitigate the risk while adding redundancy NASA style. I have two Cor 15's each in their own energy bar for this very reason. Why 2 eb832's you may say for cost, and I would agree, is that I want redundancy and hot spares should I need it. In use or boxed up a spare is a spare and always good to have controller or not. I also have a Cor 20 that isn't 1-link but rather on a standalone outlet...

So back to your "what if". Well, what if your gcfi trips. What if your power fails. We can play what if all day but as noted above all systems should have redundancy designed into it from day one. Controller or not this is not a substitution or ego thing as you point out but rather something a hobbyist chooses to do.

Multiple ways to run a system non of which are related to ego's. Tanks can run without. Tanks run with. Tanks run without skimmers. With skimmers. With skimmers cycling on/off at random times during the week. Some dose A, B, C, and a slew of other things. Some do not. Some dose only Kalk. Some say MH only. Others say Radion. Then there is the kessil crowd, the DIY crowd, and everything in between.

In the end here is the deal. Do what you want and have fun. The comment about ego or substitution doesn't belong here though just because someone does things differently.

 

[doodledreads]

Couldn't agree with this more ^ Never understood why someone would take a return pump such as the COR15 and solely rely on a controller to run it. What happens if the controller fails?
Seems to me it's more of an ego thing for the gadget crowd. Or a subsitute for a lack of something somewhere else.
Kind of like a Redneck with small $#@% syndrome, they always have a big 4 wheel drive truck.

No need for such comments here. Let people enjoy what they like; big trucks or complex controllers. I just see you being sour about someone being able to have stuff.

I would certainly get a controller if you can afford one. They are an amazing tool in the reef keeping hobby. Now will you be a better reefer just because you have a controller? No, that depends on your experience, knowledge and patience.

 

[Tamberav]

I'm leaning heavily on purchasing an apex system at the end of this month.. I have found that when I went to a larger system I am struggling slightly on keeping my parameters where I want them.

I would love to be able to have real time data on ph, salinity, and other things like my ato ( I fight with remembering to fill it )

For anyone who has one and takes advantage of all its features do you have any insight or comments I would appreciate it!

ok. The salinity probe is garbage, hope you don't think it will work reliably. Getting reagents for the Trident is difficult right now because of covid. Some parts apex sells seem lackluster like the auto feeder. The DOS is loud for continuous water changes and some people go as far as to mount them outside their house in a shed. It is large and pretty ugly and cheap feeling for such an expensive device in 2020. Did that convince you? Probably not but I tried.

 

[Spieg]

I've had a couple of Apex controllers in the past, but would reccomend about any other brand based on my experience with Neptunes lack luster support and failure rate... basically anything that went wrong with the equipment they would blame on the user because their documentation states the controller should not be kept in a damp area (like near a fish tank for example? what the heck). I finally got sick of paying for repairs and moved on.

 

[jda]

The Neptune does introduce another point of failure with known cases of outlets failing both on and off, so one more failure point than just a power strip. This does not seem to happen as much as it once did, but it is still a possibility. It is probably worth the risk to some folks who might have equipment that is more failure prone than an Apex is.

The point of having dual outlets with equipment strategically placed on each is a good one no matter if you use a controller, or not. Circuit 1 for me is Return Pump, Skimmers and a single heater in the tank; Circuit 2 is Tank Flow Pumps and Normal Heaters (lots of them) in the sump. I like to have a third circuit for lighting. This way, if I lose one total circuit, the tank stays warm and has water moving.

As for pH, I bought commercial grade probes (they are like $500) and had best-two-of-three redundancy since all hobby grade probes are trash (even the lab grade ones are still hobby grade). After a while, I had no idea why I did this since I would not use the reading for any decision making. I sold the probes and just never looked at pH again. IMO, don't worry about pH with a controller... there is no need. If you need to know where you are every once in a while, then get a cheap pH pen for $10-15 and some calibration fluid.

I forgot to mention that there are a whole subset of reefers who love the build and the process of making everything look nice and clean and stuff. Some struggle when the tank is "built" and some transition well to coral keeping and not "building" anymore. If you are one of these, then a controller might be an indispensable amount of fun and entertainment.... and what better thing is there to do with your money than to have fun?

 

[schuby]

My primary motivation for putting an Apex on my second tank was monitoring, especially the flow of my return pumps. On my first tank about 15 years ago, I left my power-strip (where my return pump was plugged in) off over night. To my great dismay, pretty much all my fish were dead in the morning. It is my routine these days to check the two return pumps' flow meters right before I go to bed. Those two flow meters showing around 300gph each are evidence that the pumps are on and working normally.

I have my Apex set to turn my heater outlets off when the temp goes above a certain level. I think this will prevent a broken heater from boiling my tank. I've never had a heater do this but I'm proactively trying to prevent it.

The Apex gives me so much more information about my current tank than I had on my previous tank. With Apex graphs/reading and my regular testing, I feel much more in-tune with my tank. Information can be invaluable.

 

[Parent_usmc]

Just remember that they are tools and no more. They are not magic. They are also no substitute for getting good equipment... I don't think that enough people get this until it is too late and they had a few failures that cost them. I am amazed that people will spend thousands in a "controller" and all of the modules and then cheap out and buy a Chinese knock-off piece of equipment that is destined to fail early - quality equipment does not even have to cost a lot of money. There is a piece of equipment for every application that has decade+ of reliability, which is a good place to start.

I'm currently running all red sea products with the exception of a single heater, and cor 20 return pump. I tried to build with decent equipment.

 

[Uncle99]

Mine is fun, but that’s it just fun.
I spent more time in calibrating and analyzing than just testing once a week.
The only controllers I use now are a temp controller and a battery backup for power loss.