Copepods and uncycled tank

[bsap]

Hi all, I want to add copepods to my tank which is in the process of cycling. I'm still recording Nitrite readings of 1 ppm but no ammonia. Would this be safe to do?

 

[T-J]

Safe? Probably.
Advisable? No.
Why? What's in the tank for them to feed on, unless you're going to feed the tank.

 

[bsap]

Safe? Probably.
Advisable? No.
Why? What's in the tank for them to feed on, unless you're going to feed the tank.

I was going to put just some phyto in with them

 

[brandon429]

considering that the 100 page bottle bac thread shows all common brands of bottle bac getting adhered to surfaces, unable to be removed by any degree of water changes within about 3 - 5 days max (cycled definition/excludes nitrite readings focuses solely on ammonia) what are the chances your reef isn't cycled?

 

[bsap]

considering that the 100 page bottle bac thread shows all common brands of bottle bac getting adhered to surfaces, unable to be removed by any degree of water changes within about 3 - 5 days max (cycled definition/excludes nitrite readings focuses solely on ammonia) what are the chances your reef isn't cycled?

Well considering that my reef has been cycling since a little over a week now and I've used Dr. Tim's, Microbacter 7, and TurboStart, I'd say that with no ammonia and only nitrite sitting at 1 ppm, I'd say it's close to being cycled but I just wanted to be sure just in case. I know copepods can be very fragile

 

[brandon429]

people add clownfish on day 1 of those types of cycles, and the fish always live bc that bottle bac brand is tested good for initial carry. those pods won't be harmed they're far less loading than fish. there's an old adage that adding fish + bottle bac on day 1 was harming fish, it wasn't, we can see in any seneye + fish + bottle bac cycle. those bottle bac can handle ammonia instantly when dosed, even when they're just in suspension and haven't migrated onto surfaces yet which I agree based on Dr. Reef's thread your tank will be past that stage.

the reason I'm not worried about your bottle bac being dead is because its never been shown one single time in reefing on a seneye post, in a display tank, so until we get one of those the best % prediction chance is that your water bacteria held in water and added to water did fine.

the reason I'd casually mentioned nitrite doesn't matter anymore is because that's where new cycling science diverges from old cycling science where it matters. new cycling science adheres to Randy's article from 2006 on effects of nitrite in display tanks, there aren't any. its ironic that new cycling sciences uses fifteen year old articles but that's how long it takes to get people to drop old cycling science and replace it with what works, and what is timely.

 

[bsap]

That being said, is now an ideal time to add a pair of clownfish given these parameters?

 

[davidcalgary29]

Probably, but what tests are you using? Why do you think that your tank is still cycling?

 

[brandon429]

no because of disease concern. the system will for sure carry them, but nowadays there's a higher risk you'll waste the fish due to disease expression within a few months compared to any time in the past.

most ignore this, and begin anyway, and the fish live and eat fine but you can see from reading any weeklong set of pages in the disease forum how that turns out 80% of the time within a few months. everyday I see new posts from people's tank we cycled months ago, and warned them to do preps, pop up in the disease forum asking to stem fish loss. people nearly refuse the method until they've wasted several fish, you should begin with it.

reasons why this impacts you: let's say you did consider some form of protocol where your dry start tank gets to skip fallow because bottle bac is all that's been added (non disease vector) and then you added quarantined fish, that's a tight disease prevention approach. well, the load of corals and clean up crew about to be added by skipping fallow undoes all the original control, opening the tank up to disease. ideally you'd leave out fish for a long time, stock the tank up and running, fallow the tank, add qt fish.

you need to do self guided study in the disease forum before adding fish, to put together a sensible loss prevention protocol.

other details you'll uncover in the hunt: no degree of cycle wait or prep stops disease expression. fallow and quarantine is what stops and lowers disease expression, thats why 100 pages of work in the fish forum uses those means.

 

[bsap]

I'm using Salifert tests. I'm also coming from freshwater and we're always told that there has to be no ammonia and no nitrite in order for the cycle to be over

 

[bsap]

no because of disease concern. the system will for sure carry them, but nowadays there's a higher risk you'll waste the fish due to disease expression within a few months compared to any time in the past.

most ignore this, and begin anyway, and the fish live and eat fine but you can see from reading any weeklong set of pages in the disease forum how that turns out 80% of the time within a few months. everyday I see new posts from people's tank we cycled months ago, and warned them to do preps, pop up in the disease forum asking to stem fish loss. people nearly refuse the method until they've wasted several fish, you should begin with it.

reasons why this impacts you: let's say you did consider some form of protocol where your dry start tank gets to skip fallow because bottle bac is all that's been added (non disease vector) and then you added quarantined fish, that's a tight disease prevention approach. well, the load of corals and clean up crew about to be added by skipping fallow undoes all the original control, opening the tank up to disease. ideally you'd leave out fish for a long time, stock the tank up and running, fallow the tank, add qt fish.

you need to do self guided study in the disease forum before adding fish, to put together a sensible loss prevention protocol.

other details you'll uncover in the hunt: no degree of cycle wait or prep stops disease expression. fallow and quarantine is what stops and lowers disease expression, thats why 100 pages of work in the fish forum uses those means.

So what do you suggest I do then?

 

[brandon429]

from that link-


ideally you'd leave out fish for a long time, stock the tank up and running, fallow the tank, add qt fish.

you build an entire reef with corals, clean up crew, handling a few invasions by cleaning and guiding, all without any fish. you add fish when the reef has been fallowed.

while that may not match your ideal plan, you can see from clicking literally any help link in the disease forum how ignoring preps and order of ops is working out, its killing fish by the bucketload within a few months after adding them.

 

[davidcalgary29]

I'm using Salifert tests. I'm also coming from freshwater and we're always told that there has to be no ammonia and no nitrite in order for the cycle to be over

No, this doesn't apply to marine tanks. In most cases, ammonia is the killer.

 

[davidcalgary29]

So what do you suggest I do then?

I agree with @brandon429, but many find the prospect of setting up a quarantine system in tandem with their display to be a daunting/impossible task, although it's the most prudent thing to do. Once you put fish in your display, you're going to introduce potential disease vectors, and it then becomes very difficult to get rid of the disease from the system. Some people end up breaking down their tanks because of this, and that's not something that you want to face.

That being said, there are other options and other opinions (including not using quarantine at all) on this site, and you should take a look at some of the threads here.

 

[brandon429]

Nano-reef.com is an interesting trove of info, they’ve been setting up nanos with two clowns skipping preps for twenty years all logged for inspection, the vast majority do fine like that. Over here though, speciation is nearly guaranteed to quickly surpass merely two clowns, and added to that are the ways we stock reefs now from pet store frag tanks that have unprepped fish swimming around, or clean up crews held in community tanks at one point


the disease forum is the best place to get info, because using any method that doesn’t come from there for new cyclers is causing the losses. You can find single author threads where no quarantine works, but you cant find forums built around it or any stickies in the disease forum on the issue because it’s a false claim, with no ability to do anything for the hobby. People who advocate skipping preps only have threads of their own posts singularly to back the claims. They regulate all disclosed info, good and bad, and magically the statements always come out 100% positive

if their claims were true, I’d think there’d be a running forum where they help people like Jay does, live time. Never mentioning their own reef in any job.

 

[bsap]

Nano-reef.com is an interesting trove of info, they’ve been setting up nanos with two clowns skipping preps for twenty years all logged for inspection, the vast majority do fine like that. Over here though, speciation is nearly guaranteed to quickly surpass merely two clowns, and added to that are the ways we stock reefs now from pet store frag tanks that have unprepped fish swimming around, or clean up crews held in community tanks at one point


the disease forum is the best place to get info, because using any method that doesn’t come from there for new cyclers is causing the losses. You can find single author threads where no quarantine works, but you cant find forums built around it or any stickies in the disease forum on the issue because it’s a false claim, with no ability to do anything for the hobby. People who advocate skipping preps only have threads of their own posts singularly to back the claims. They regulate all disclosed info, good and bad, and magically the statements always come out 100% positive

if their claims were true, I’d think there’d be a running forum where they help people like Jay does, live time. Never mentioning their own reef in any job.

Just want to be clear here, you're suggesting add the copepods, corals, and whatever CUC is needed, wait out the FALLOW period, then add the fish?

 

[brandon429]

if your plan is to have species well beyond two clowns that's how I'd do it. That's what I garner from self reads in the disease forum/days worth not 2 min skims

fallow and quarantine is the way per that forum and its daily tasks. I'm not their fanboy as it may seem I'm remarking on the sole place on the web where you can get independent help without having to read ten pages of someone's rehashed pictures of their reef which is perfect and used no quarantine. I rate the place as the best source of info because they take on new jobs daily, for over ten years. Humble was doing it before Jay, and they use the same techniques that zoos use-both those guys do.

the reason we fill up the tank first with most of the corals we want and the cuc, and weather a couple invasion storms without fish while keeping those other animals alive, is because it gives critical reefing practice before you add the final sensitive creatures most likely to die from disease.

by building up the reef very well before adding fish, you're not risking 27 times of bringing in brook every time you add a new frag. its possible to do it the other way, partial stocking now, qt fish added now, and a separate tank where all in coming frags are fallowed, but that's a dual tank setup.


if your goal is a normal nano with two clowns and a bunch of corals then the disease preps aren't as needed per nano-reef.com logs. but you will benefit greatly by guiding the system into some element of maturity before adding fish as they'll boost by waste production and feed command all the common uglies that wipes out tanks when they start. fishless tanks are easier to control as you tune them.

 

[brandon429]

skim down just the threads in this forum on page 1 and page 2, look at the questions regarding fish

see how zero references to disease preps are in play/its all about what relayed parameter settings/ that's what drives the fish disease forum to hundreds of pages of constant battles needing help, its 10x over the most busiest forum on this board. we start all that, here.

we are all trained to meticulously ensure nitrite is zero and ammonia is zero, then add fish. That is a horrible formula for keeping fish alive apparently. The updated findings are: you really can't mess up ammonia control nowadays, bottle bac makers have it figured out, nitrite doesn't matter in display reef setup cycling, and actual disease preps are needed to keep fish alive nowadays.

 

[Jay'sReefBugs]

As long as you have substrate/ no ammonia and are going to feed phytoplankton daily then yes you can . Just make sure your system can handle the phyto 1st before adding the copepods

 

[bsap]

skim down just the threads in this forum on page 1 and page 2, look at the questions regarding fish

see how zero references to disease preps are in play/its all about what relayed parameter settings/ that's what drives the fish disease forum to hundreds of pages of constant battles needing help, its 10x over the most busiest forum on this board. we start all that, here.

we are all trained to meticulously ensure nitrite is zero and ammonia is zero, then add fish. That is a horrible formula for keeping fish alive apparently. The updated findings are: you really can't mess up ammonia control nowadays, bottle bac makers have it figured out, nitrite doesn't matter in display reef setup cycling, and actual disease preps are needed to keep fish alive nowadays.

Just did a water change, I did a full test and there’s still a slight presence of nitrite and 40 ppm of nitrate. It’s my understanding that any bit of nitrite can interfere in the nitrate reading. Just wanted your take before I added my first fish