Copper Band with Dark Markings and Possible Fin Rot

[Instigate]

I got this CBB about a week ago and he's been eating great and very active, always searching and on the move. He's never been a very pure white like I see on other CBBs.

Didn't think much of it, figured he's showing his stress colors because of the new surroundings. But it never went away and he seems at peace in the tank so I'm not sure what that's about.

By the third day I was seeing ich on him so I started ramping up copper. As of Wednesday the 20gallon long he's in is at ~2.0ppm chelated copper and no more irritation from the ich is visible. Plan was to do 14 days then transfer into a sterile 4' 70gallon for a week or so observation.

Today I'm noticing some what looks to be lympho starting on one of his pelvic fins. As well as what I think might be the start of some fin rot. But when looking at the photos on my PC I'm seeing the dark coloration up close and wondering what's causing it.

I'm feeding spirulina brine shrimp, mysis, hikkari angel prep, formula 2, fish frenzy. Always soaked in selcon. I've also been feeding about 4-5 times a day. He's always starving and active so I feel like he's needs to eat often.

Haven't had any issues with ammonia, I've been vacuuming out uneaten food and pood daily/every other day. And been doing a WC every 2-3 days. I think the water quality is good, but I know he would appreciate a larger tank.

I guess my main question is does any of the dark coloration look bacterial? I would appreciate any advise on how I should move forward.

 

[HotRocks]

I got this CBB about a week ago and he's been eating great and very active, always searching and on the move. He's never been a very pure white like I see on other CBBs.

Didn't think much of it, figured he's showing his stress colors because of the new surroundings. But it never went away and he seems at peace in the tank so I'm not sure what that's about.

By the third day I was seeing ich on him so I started ramping up copper. As of Wednesday the 20gallon long he's in is at ~2.0ppm chelated copper and no more irritation from the ich is visible. Plan was to do 14 days then transfer into a sterile 4' 70gallon for a week or so observation.

Today I'm noticing some what looks to be lympho starting on one of his pelvic fins. As well as what I think might be the start of some fin rot. But when looking at the photos on my PC I'm seeing the dark coloration up close and wondering what's causing it.

I'm feeding spirulina brine shrimp, mysis, hikkari angel prep, formula 2, fish frenzy. Always soaked in selcon. I've also been feeding about 4-5 times a day. He's always starving and active so I feel like he's needs to eat often.

Haven't had any issues with ammonia, I've been vacuuming out uneaten food and pood daily/every other day. And been doing a WC every 2-3 days. I think the water quality is good, but I know he would appreciate a larger tank.

I guess my main question is does any of the dark coloration look bacterial? I would appreciate any advise on how I should move forward.

I personally have no experience with CBBs, but in general, it's recommended to use chelated copper for 30 days. I don't see any evidence of bacteria, are you sure the darkened areas aren't organs? It looks to me as that is what you have the zoomed in pics of. White fish generally would show organs like that I'd assume? Just a thought. It's also common for fish to be much less vibrant in the presence of copper.

 

[Humblefish]

I don't see anything from the photos which indicates a bacterial infection. However, CBBs are very prone to infection, and when it happens the scales turn dark and then red. Like a blister on them. Best antibiotic concoction for treating butterflies and large angels is NFG: http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/NFP-products-Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html

 

[Big G]

The skin pigmentation on CBBs seems to vary quite a bit. Those little black dots in the one picture appear to be the fish's normal pigmentation. The darkish areas on the edges of the fins are probably from shipping and handling. CBBs are prone to bacterial infections that show as red edges or spots. As Humblefish just posted, Nitrofuracine Green Powder is well known for treating this in CBBs. But you have to have the med on hand. Time is of the essence when this happens. Beautiful fish. Be glad it is eating so well for you. That in itself is a very good place to be.

 

[Instigate]

I personally have no experience with CBBs, but in general, it's recommended to use chelated copper for 30 days. I don't see any evidence of bacteria, are you sure the darkened areas aren't organs? It looks to me as that is what you have the zoomed in pics of. White fish generally would show organs like that I'd assume? Just a thought. It's also common for fish to be much less vibrant in the presence of copper.

There are two types a dark markings I'm pointing to, one, is the dark marks that are on the pelvic fins in the last photo(possible fin rot?), the other is the black spots that are all over the white areas. Those I believe are just his stress colors or something but I wanted to get another opinion.

I'm aware the recommended time in copper is 30 days but it's my understanding that doing 14 days then a transfer to a clean tank is just as good as long as you're sure you never went under 1.5ppm. I'm just trying to reduce the amount of time in copper.

But since you brought it up I'm confused about where the 14 and 30 day numbers come from.

Terminology - The following terms are used to describe the various stages of ich’s life cycle:

• Trophont: The “feeding stage” of the parasite that attaches itself to the fish, commonly associated with salt or sugar-like “sprinkles” on the body or fins. These sprinkles are not the actual parasite, as all stages of ich are invisible to the naked eye. The sprinkles are actually “exit wounds” from the trophonts; they look white because excess mucous builds up around the tiny “bite marks” inflicted by trophonts. A fish carrying trophonts doesn’t always have visible symptoms, as the gills are easier to penetrate, and those trophonts will be out of sight. Trophonts in the gills cause excess fluid to build up, making it more difficult for the fish to breathe.
• Protomont: The stage where the parasite drops off the fish, before becoming a tomont. Protomonts crawl around looking for surfaces to encyst upon.
• Tomont: The “encysted stage” which sticks to rocks, shells, substrate - and even possibly corals/inverts. Tomonts produce “daughter” tomites, which are then released into the water column as theronts.
• Theront: The “free swimming” stage which seeks out fish to infect/feed upon. Theronts are the only stage affected by chemical treatments (ex. copper) and hyposalinity. It is also possible to cross contaminate with theronts by sharing water between tanks or via aerosol transmission. Once a theront finds a fish host and attaches, it becomes a trophont and the life cycle begins all over again.

Life Cycle - Ich is most often introduced into an aquarium by a fish carrying trophonts. However, cross contamination from theronts or a tomont brought in on a coral/invert are other possibilities. Assuming we are dealing with a fish carrying trophonts, this is how the life cycle plays out:

1. A trophont will typically spend 3-7 days feeding on a fish, before dropping off to become a protomont.
2. The protomont crawls around for 2-18 hours, looking for a surface to encyst upon. Once it finds this, it sticks to the surface, and begins the encysting process. The parasite is now called a tomont.
3. It takes about 8-12 hours for the cyst to harden around the tomont. After this, the tomont goes into “reproductive mode” producing numerous daughter tomites. These tomites are then released into the water column as theronts. How long it takes for theronts to be released varies greatly, depending upon which strain of ich you are dealing with. The average time is 2 weeks, with 35 days usually being the maximum; however in at least one study (Colorni and Burgess 1997), it took 72 days for all the theronts to be released from a group of tomonts.
4. The now “free swimming” theronts seek out fish to feed on, thereby becoming trophonts, and the cycle starts all over again. A given strain will die out after 100 generations or so. Given the average life cycle of ich is 2 weeks, this could take almost 4 years (on average).

As you may have noticed, the timing for each stage to “move forward” to the next varies considerably. Therefore, ich is rarely in sync. For example, it is not unusual for a fish to be battling trophonts, while simultaneously theronts are swimming around looking for a host to feed on. This is especially true if your tank is plagued by more than one strain of ich. It’s this “perfect storm” that sometimes allows ich to overwhelm an immune system and the fish dies.

A trophont will spend a maximum of 7 days feeding on the fish and copper only kills ich in the theront stage. So once you take copper up over 1.5ppm(chelated) no more theronts should be able to reinfect the fish because they would be killed by the copper. And after 7 days all trophonts would be off the fish. So technically after 7 days you should be able to transfer to a sterile tank and be free of ich right? 14 days is listed as the average time to release theronts and 35 days a maximum, the 72 days is a number that came from a study in which they used water much cooler than what we use so the lifecycle is not likely that long in out aquariums. What's the reason we don't do 7 days and switch to a new tank?

 

[Instigate]

I don't see anything from the photos which indicates a bacterial infection. However, CBBs are very prone to infection, and when it happens the scales turn dark and then red. Like a blister on them. Best antibiotic concoction for treating butterflies and large angels is NFG: http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/NFP-products-Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html

Good to hear. I have merto/kana/furan on hand as well as ruby reef rally. But none of that. I see that site also sells CP. Would be nice to have some NFG and CP on hand!

The skin pigmentation on CBBs seems to vary quite a bit. Those little black dots in the one picture appear to be the fish's normal pigmentation. The darkish areas on the edges of the fins are probably from shipping and handling. CBBs are prone to bacterial infections that show as red edges or spots. As Humblefish just posted, Nitrofuracine Green Powder is well known for treating this in CBBs. But you have to have the med on hand. Time is of the essence when this happens. Beautiful fish. Be glad it is eating so well for you. That in itself is a very good place to be.

Good good. I was aware of what it looks like when they get the red bacterial infection but when I saw some possible fin rot on his right hand pelvic fin just above what looks like some lympho I took some pictures and got to worrying about the little black dots.

 

[Big G]

CBBs will give you a stomach ulcer. LOL

 

[Instigate]

CBBs will give you a stomach ulcer. LOL

I wasn't anticipating it. lol but it's worth it imo. It's such a beautiful fish and it's not scarred of me at all. I love how it's always on the hunt always swimming around almost awkwardly sometimes.

 

[Humblefish]

Good to hear. I have merto/kana/furan on hand as well as ruby reef rally. But none of that. I see that site also sells CP. Would be nice to have some NFG and CP on hand!

FWIW; Metro/kana/furan works very well. I just have found NFG works a little better/faster on angels & butterflies with "red sore" infections.

I wouldn't buy CP from that source unless you can have it independently tested for purity.

 

[Instigate]

Does this look like the start of a bacterial infection?

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bacterial-infection.379348/