Copper Present Before Dosing Started

[reeferericb]

I’m quarantining all my fish and I’m just starting to dose copper. I did a trial run on my Hanna tester and I got a result of 0.19 before I began adding any copper to the tank. Any ideas where it could have come from? My TDS is measuring around 20 ppm (just tested it tonight). Otherwise my salt mix is reef crystals.

 

[Courtney Aldrich]

You could have some copper in your water supply if you're not using a RO/DI system. Hallsville, TX reported 1.3 ppm in their most recent 2019 water quality report (https://www.gswsc.com/documents/292/ilovepdf_merged.pdf) while Hallsville, MO reported 0.1 ppm copper in their water from 2015-2017 (https://hallsvillemo.org/water-quality-report), which has subsequently been addressed with no violation since 2018.

 

[reeferericb]

You could have some copper in your water supply if you're not using a RO/DI system. Hallsville, TX reported 1.3 ppm in their most recent 2019 water quality report (https://www.gswsc.com/documents/292/ilovepdf_merged.pdf) while Hallsville, MO reported 0.1 ppm copper in their water from 2015-2017 (https://hallsvillemo.org/water-quality-report), which has subsequently been addressed with no violation since 2018.

I am using RO/DI and I’m in Missouri.

 

[Courtney Aldrich]

Back to square one. If you had used copper previously (or if your QT tank is pre-owned and could have been treated), then there could be a little leaching out. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter since you'll be dosing with copper at higher levels (I thought the target was 2.5 ppm).

I did a little reading and found that 'Reef Crystals' apparently uses a heavy-metal chelator (a small-molecule that tightly binds metals) to neutralize heavy metals found in tapwater (see: http://www.instantocean.com/Products/Sea-Salt-Mixes/reef-crystals-sea-salt.aspx). I would not use this salt for a QT tank as the metal chelator could bind the copper you are dosing. This is highly unusual and most salts do not include a chelator. Here's a thread from a few years also discussing this: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/w...eef-crystal-salt-mix-exactly-detoxify.311518/

 

[jjencek]

I had similar problem. It turned out that it was probably a false positive result. Hanna reacts to other stuff besides copper. Is the water RO/DI without any other products added? Does the RO/DI measure any Cu?

I never figured out which additional product I was adding created this problem. I contacted Hanna in Central Europe (I live across the street from them) and offered to work with them to figure it out, but the guy working there had no interest in doing any extra work for his paycheck.

 

[Hugh Mann]

Did you dump the water from the bag into the QT as well? Some stores will run constant low levels of copper in their systems. Most of my local stores do.

 

[reeferericb]

I had similar problem. It turned out that it was probably a false positive result. Hanna reacts to other stuff besides copper. Is the water RO/DI without any other products added? Does the RO/DI measure any Cu?

I never figured out which additional product I was adding created this problem. I contacted Hanna in Central Europe (I live across the street from them) and offered to work with them to figure it out, but the guy working there had no interest in doing any extra work for his paycheck.

I will test a tube of RODI and see what that does. Great idea, thanks.

 

[reeferericb]

Did you dump the water from the bag into the QT as well? Some stores will run constant low levels of copper in their systems. Most of my local stores do.

All these fish were from my DT. I try to not dump lfs water into my tank. I’m sure trace amounts get in.

 

[Courtney Aldrich]

I wanted to emphasize that your salt (Reef crystals) should not be used with copper since the copper will be ineffective.

I did a little reading and found that 'Reef Crystals' apparently uses a heavy-metal chelator (a small-molecule that tightly binds metals) to neutralize heavy metals found in tapwater (see: http://www.instantocean.com/Products/Sea-Salt-Mixes/reef-crystals-sea-salt.aspx). I would not use this salt for a QT tank as the metal chelator will bind the copper you are dosing making it unavailable to kill parasites. This is highly unusual and most salts do not include a chelator. Here's a thread from a few years also discussing this: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/w...eef-crystal-salt-mix-exactly-detoxify.311518/

 

[reeferericb]

I wanted to emphasize that your salt (Reef crystals) should not be used with copper since the copper will be ineffective.

I did a little reading and found that 'Reef Crystals' apparently uses a heavy-metal chelator (a small-molecule that tightly binds metals) to neutralize heavy metals found in tapwater (see: http://www.instantocean.com/Products/Sea-Salt-Mixes/reef-crystals-sea-salt.aspx). I would not use this salt for a QT tank as the metal chelator will bind the copper you are dosing making it unavailable to kill parasites. This is highly unusual and most salts do not include a chelator. Here's a thread from a few years also discussing this: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/w...eef-crystal-salt-mix-exactly-detoxify.311518/

I do appreciate the advice. If the copper levels increase to the necessary therapeutic range are you suggesting it still won’t work? Or are you saying it won’t raise the level at all?

 

[Courtney Aldrich]

I do appreciate the advice. If the copper levels increase to the necessary therapeutic range are you suggesting it still won’t work? Or are you saying it won’t raise the level at all?

Yes, I'm suggesting that the copper won't work. If Reef Crystals really does use a chelating agent, then it will bind the copper and make it unavailable to do it's job killing parasites. I don't know if this will interfere with your copper test, but it probable that the copper test will likely still show copper. The reef crystals are apparently made for use with tap water containing trace heavy metals.

 

[Courtney Aldrich]

Maybe it's okay. I found this on Instant Ocean's website of commonly asked questions.

"Does Instant Ocean® contain a dechlorinator? Does Instant Ocean® contain any ethylenediamine tetraacetic acid (EDTA) or other types of metal chelators?

A: Instant Ocean® has never contained a dechlorinator or any type of chelator. It is advisable to dechlorinate using a commercially available de-chlorinator when using tap water to dissolve Instant Ocean®."

 

[Saltyanimals]

First time I've heard of IO salt bringing a negative variable to Copper and QT methods. I imagine a large number of reefers including myself wouldn't spring for a premium salt brand for QT considering the amount of WC required at times. Has anyone else experience this with their IO? I use the standard IO and not reef crystals myself.


@Jay Hemdal @4FordFamily

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Maybe it's okay. I found this on Instant Ocean's website of commonly asked questions.

"Does Instant Ocean® contain a dechlorinator? Does Instant Ocean® contain any ethylenediamine tetraacetic acid (EDTA) or other types of metal chelators?

A: Instant Ocean® has never contained a dechlorinator or any type of chelator. It is advisable to dechlorinate using a commercially available de-chlorinator when using tap water to dissolve Instant Ocean®."

Instant Ocean has a compound in it that is 80% opaque to UV spectrophotometer scans at 208 nm. I've heard three theories as to what that is: an anti-caking compound, EDTA or sodium thiosulfate. I tested sodium thio and it had a strong absorption at 214 nm. However, there is some reducing agent in Instant Ocean as it dechlorinates tap water by about 70%.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Yes, I'm suggesting that the copper won't work. If Reef Crystals really does use a chelating agent, then it will bind the copper and make it unavailable to do it's job killing parasites. I don't know if this will interfere with your copper test, but it probable that the copper test will likely still show copper. The reef crystals are apparently made for use with tap water containing trace heavy metals.

The chelating agent, if used, is intended to bond with trace contaminants in the salt mix, and won't be an issue with copper treatments. I've used IO with Coppersafe for over 40 years and never had an issue.

Jay