Copper QT process question

[Tabasco1]

OK. I have a QT set up and prophylactically treating the fish with copper. A pair of b/w clowns and a tribal blenny.

The fish have been in QT for 2 weeks for observation and feeding. All good there. Started treating with copper over the weekend.

The instructions for the copper medication call for a 2 week treatment period. Reading through the QT process posted on R2R, the recommendation is 30 days in QT. It kind of reads that the copper treatment should be 30 days, which conflicts with the instructions on the medication. Using Seachem cupramine chelated copper.

My question is this. Should I follow the medication instructions or keep in copper therapeutic concentration for 30 days?

TIA!!

 

[Rgbpixels]

OK. I have a QT set up and prophylactically treating the fish with copper. A pair of b/w clowns and a tribal blenny.

The fish have been in QT for 2 weeks for observation and feeding. All good there. Started treating with copper over the weekend.

The instructions for the copper medication call for a 2 week treatment period. Reading through the QT process posted on R2R, the recommendation is 30 days in QT. It kind of reads that the copper treatment should be 30 days, which conflicts with the instructions on the medication. Using Seachem cupramine chelated copper.

My question is this. Should I follow the medication instructions or keep in copper therapeutic concentration for 30 days?

TIA!!

Following this as well. I have heard conflicting information on the dose strength as well. Some say follow the bottle and some say use 1/2 the recommended. Copper works well but seems to cause a lot of damage to the fish

 

[Billldg]

You use cupramine copper for 30 days at a therapeutic level of between .4 and .5 ppm. You can do 14 days at therapeutic levels, but then you have to transfer to a sterile tank after 14 days of copper and observe or start prazi treatment.

 

[HotRocks]

14 days is sufficient so long as the Cu level never drops below therapuetic levels and you transfer the fish from therapeutic copper to a 2nd sterile QT as mentioned above.

The reason is the life cycle of ich well exceeds 14 days. But the part of the cycle that ich would be in around the 14 day mark is the tomont stage. Which releases free swimmers seeking fish to infect or host. This is the only stage of the parasites that copper kills therefore the fish itself is clean after 10-14 days. The tank however is not so that is why you have to transfer the fish.

 

[HotRocks]

Following this as well. I have heard conflicting information on the dose strength as well. Some say follow the bottle and some say use 1/2 the recommended. Copper works well but seems to cause a lot of damage to the fish

Using copper at half strength is not effective FYI. Hopefully no one reputable on R2R is recommending that.

Using copper at the therapuetic level is a must in order to erradicate ich/velvet.

Using at half strength would most likely make the fish seem clean, until you move them out of copper and the parasites take hold again...

 

[lagatbezan]

If i'm not mistaking I believe cupramine is charged copper and not chelated. Copper power is chelated.
Get yourself a hanna high range copper kit if you can. Best investment I made for my qt arsenal.
Also regardless if you do the 14 day or the 30, I would recommend to move the fish out to another sterile qt after the treatment (before you remove the copper). This way you are protected against the rare ich parasites that have a 30+ cyst stage.

 

[Pbh-reef]

If i'm not mistaking I believe cupramine is charged copper and not chelated. Copper power is chelated.
Get yourself a hanna high range copper kit if you can. Best investment I made for my qt arsenal.
Also regardless if you do the 14 day or the 30, I would recommend to move the fish out to another sterile qt after the treatment (before you remove the copper). This way you are protected against the rare ich parasites that have a 30+ cyst stage.

I thought 30 days in Copper renders the cysts sterile so that it would be ok to remove copper with carbon or water changes and keep the fish in the same QT?

 

[HotRocks]

I thought 30 days in Copper renders the cysts sterile so that it would be ok to remove copper with carbon or water changes and keep the fish in the same QT?

It usually is. @lagatbezan is just saying it's more of a guarantee if you transfer.

There is a known slow to cycle strain of ich that can outlast the 30 days of copper. Encountering this would be rare. It is however possible.

 

[lagatbezan]

It usually is. @lagatbezan is just saying it's more of a guarantee if you transfer.

There is a known slow to cycle strain of ich that can outlast the 30 days of copper. Encountering this would be rare. It is however possible.

After reading how some ich can have 70 + day cyst stage, I personally feel its best to transfer them to another tank after treatment just in case so they don't get infected once the copper is removed (or even CP). The chances are very little, but still possible.
I learned the hard way that in this hobby it is always best to take the extra one step to be safe then sorry.

 

[Billldg]

After reading how some ich can have 70 + day cyst stage, I personally feel its best to transfer them to another tank after treatment just in case so they don't get infected once the copper is removed (or even CP). The chances are very little, but still possible.
I learned the hard way that in this hobby it is always best to take the extra one step to be safe then sorry.

Thats what I plan on doing this weekend, not going to bother with water changes, just going to transfer my fish that I have in QT to a new sterile tank this weekend and just break down my others and sterilize them.

 

[Billldg]

Oh, only to start the process all over again a week after, lol!!!

 

[HotRocks]

Oh, only to start the process all over again a week after, lol!!!

Hahaha the vicious cycle.

We are working on setting up a rather large QT right now to QT fish for @4FordFamily's new wall tank!

 

[Billldg]

Hahaha the vicious cycle.

We are working on setting up a rather large QT right now to QT fish for @4FordFamily's new wall tank!

That is going to be a sweet tank, I will probably order 2 tangs and 2 wrasses this weekend

 

[Tabasco1]

Thanks all!

Correct-not chelated. Sorry. I think the chelated is harder on fish. I have a test kit, but not a Hanna.

OK. So the life cycle thing. You need to move between 10-14 days. Theoretically 15 days and the fish would possibly not be clean any longer? Does the display count as a sterile environment??

My concern with transferring to another tank is...

A. I have to check to see if I have a 4th tank. (150 display, 16 coral qt, 30 fish qt). I may have a 20 laying around.

B. Ammonia filtration. This is more of a concern. In the past I have had issues with ammonia control until I added the live rock. and now I have sufficient biological filtration in the 30. I have a HOB filter (no chemical filtration in it) and some live rock. I would guess that the live rock would not be able to be transferred. Would I be able to transfer the HOB filter?

 

[HotRocks]

Thanks all!

Correct-not chelated. Sorry. I think the chelated is harder on fish. I have a test kit, but not a Hanna.

OK. So the life cycle thing. You need to move between 10-14 days. Theoretically 15 days and the fish would possibly not be clean any longer? Does the display count as a sterile environment??

My concern with transferring to another tank is...

A. I have to check to see if I have a 4th tank. (150 display, 16 coral qt, 30 fish qt). I may have a 20 laying around.

B. Ammonia filtration. This is more of a concern. In the past I have had issues with ammonia control until I added the live rock. and now I have sufficient biological filtration in the 30. I have a HOB filter (no chemical filtration in it) and some live rock. I would guess that the live rock would not be able to be transferred. Would I be able to transfer the HOB filter?

Chelated tends to be less harsh.

The only thing that can be transfered is the fish. Moving the LR would defeat the purpose of transferring the fish as it could have an encysted tomont.

Can't transfer the filter either. Same scenario. Only the fish.

Need 2 completely separate setups.

You "could" transfer to display. Just know if you missed something you will risk infecting fish in display. That is why we recommend a second sterile QT setup if transferring in order to have a place to observe fish away from DT as well as treat for flukes or infections away from copper. Make sense?

 

[Tabasco1]

Thanks. OR... wait the 30 days in therapeutic concentration?

 

[4FordFamily]

Thanks. OR... wait the 30 days in therapeutic concentration?

Correct.

 

[lagatbezan]

With chelated copper there is more wiggle room since the therapeutic rage is wider from 1.5PPM to 2.5PPM. (where for ionic is from .4PPM-.5PPM) so if the levels drop a bit, you are still protected. As long as it doesn't go below 1.5 PPM.
Also make sure to raise the copper level slowly within a few days.

 

[Tabasco1]

Crap. I thought I had picked up the chalated one that was more gentle. Welp... I'm committed to the Cupramine now. I'll toss it after this and get the chelated.

Thanks all for clearing that question up. I'll probably pick up a 10g vs waiting the 30 days.

 

[HotRocks]

Crap. I thought I had picked up the chalated one that was more gentle. Welp... I'm committed to the Cupramine now. I'll toss it after this and get the chelated.

Thanks all for clearing that question up. I'll probably pick up a 10g vs waiting the 30 days.

I wouldn't toss. It has a lengthy shelf life. There are some fish known to do better in ionic forms of copper. Although now that we have the hanna checker, I haven't found too many fish to be sensitive in copper.

This chart may be helpful as well. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fish-and-treatment-guidelines-with-chart.283450/