Copper treatment

[KEITH FERGUSON]

Thanks Guys, Just ordered the Hanna checker with extra Reagents

 

[puffy127]

I understand the removal after 14 days to a clean QT and a further observation period. If you check everyday with the Hanna checker to make sure you are at therapeutic levels, which benefit is there for a 30-day copper treatment?

After a 30-day treatment, do you also transfer to a clean QT for further observation? If not, don't you risk reinfection due to remaining tomonts (which can last up to 72 days) after removing the copper?

 

[Brew12]

I understand the removal after 14 days to a clean QT and a further observation period. If you check everyday with the Hanna checker to make sure you are at therapeutic levels, which benefit is there for a 30-day copper treatment?

After a 30-day treatment, do you also transfer to a clean QT for further observation? If not, don't you risk reinfection due to remaining tomonts (which can last up to 72 days) after removing the copper?

There is evidence that longer term exposure to copper will damage the tomonts to the point of not being viable. This typically takes 15 to 20 days from what I have read. So in theory, after around 27 days there should be no viable tomonts left in the system which is why you can remove the copper at this point.

 

[HotRocks]

I understand the removal after 14 days to a clean QT and a further observation period. If you check everyday with the Hanna checker to make sure you are at therapeutic levels, which benefit is there for a 30-day copper treatment?

After a 30-day treatment, do you also transfer to a clean QT for further observation? If not, don't you risk reinfection due to remaining tomonts (which can last up to 72 days) after removing the copper?

30 days of therapeutic copper is usually enough time to eliminate all of the free swimmers being released.

There is at least one rare strain of ich that can last longer due to the slower cycle (also was in lower temperature). This is why we fallow for the extra time just to be safe.

I have ran several batches through copper using the same tank with the 30 days in therapeutic copper. Then removing copper and observation for 14 days without transfer. No parasites remained.

If you are going to use two tanks you might as well transfer at the 14 day mark for less copper exposure on the fish.

 

[HotRocks]

There is evidence that longer term exposure to copper will damage the tomonts to the point of not being viable. This typically takes 15 to 20 days from what I have read. So in theory, after around 27 days there should be no viable tomonts left in the system which is why you can remove the copper at this point.

To add to this^^^

My last batch of QT I encountered a nasty gram negative bacterial infection. I pulled copper at the 28 day mark to start antibiotics, fish remained ich free.

 

[puffy127]

There is evidence that longer term exposure to copper will damage the tomonts to the point of not being viable. This typically takes 15 to 20 days from what I have read. So in theory, after around 27 days there should be no viable tomonts left in the system which is why you can remove the copper at this point.

Can you point me to the studies you read on copper's effect on tomonts?

 

[Brew12]

Can you point me to the studies you read on copper's effect on tomonts?

I wish I could. I lost access to them (paid studies) when a co-worker moved away. I wish I had saved a copy to my computer.

Not sure if @Humblefish has them available.

 

[Humblefish]

Can you point me to the studies you read on copper's effect on tomonts?

I haven't read anything about copper having any impact on ich or velvet tomonts.

 

[puffy127]

I haven't read anything about copper having any impact on ich or velvet tomonts.

So the 30-day treatment effect on tomonts is based on anecdotal experience?

 

[Humblefish]

So the 30-day treatment effect on tomonts is based on anecdotal experience?

Or a study I have not read.

30 days of therapeutic copper/Chloroquine works in most instances because there have only been a few documented cases of ich theronts taking >30 days to excyst from their tomonts. However, transferring the fish to a different QT after 14 days of therapeutic copper/Chloroquine is a more reliable method IMHO.

 

[puffy127]

Or a study I have not read.

30 days of therapeutic copper/Chloroquine works in most instances because there have only been a few documented cases of ich theronts taking >30 days to excyst from their tomonts. However, transferring the fish to a different QT after 14 days of therapeutic copper/Chloroquine is a more reliable method IMHO.

Thanks. Looks like I'll be doing a 14-day treatment then transfer into a new clean QT.

 

[Brew12]

Thanks. Looks like I'll be doing a 14-day treatment then transfer into a new clean QT.

That is my preferred method. Of all the studies I have read and didn't save, the one that talked about this issue is the one that haunts me. I've spent hours searching for it again and can only find rather vague references on the issue.
Like this.
https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?id=3979982&pid=11105&print=1
Dinospores were immobilized within 24 h by quinine, quinacrine, chloroquine, primaquine, chiniofon, emetine, dehydroemetine, acriflavine neutral, nifurpirinol, chloramphenicol, sulfathiazole, pentamidine, amphotericin B, malachite green, methylene blue, benzalkonium chloride, Lugol's iodine, hydrogen peroxide, and formalin. They were not killed by copper sulfate alone or complexed with citric acid or EDTA, nor by furazolidone, nitrofurazone, sulfamethazine, chlortetracycline, ipronidazole, metronidazole, ivermectin, suramin, or difluoromethylomithine. Although several substances, including all three copper compounds, prevented or inhibited tomont division or sporulation during the 7-day treatment period, only five--formalin, chiniofon, pentamidine, ipronidazole, and malachite green--impaired reproduction permanently. The effectiveness of chemotherapeutic agents against the parasite in vivo, their toxicity to fish and nitrifying bacteria, and their persistence in culture water are still being studied.

 

[Brew12]

Yup... this has been eating at me more and I can't seem to let it go.... ;Bookworm

I 'm tempted to buy access to this one article and can't even find the one I really want.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0044848684901339

Abstract
In vitro incubation of dividing tomonts of Amyloodinium ocellatum (Brown 1931) was used to evaluate efficacy and mode of action of potentially paraciticidal chemicals. Copper sulfate, in concentrations up to 10 ppm, did not interrupt division. However, concentrations as low as 0.5 ppm were lethal to sporulating tomonts and dinospores. None of the tested agents, formalin (25–200 ppm), Nitrofurazone (10–50 ppm), Furanace (1–5 ppm), malachite green (0.1–100 ppm) and Acriflavin (0.1–10 ppm) induced an immediate lethal effect. All of the agents induced a gradual inhibitory effect on the rate of division. Consequently sporulation was impaired or prevented. Inhibition was related to the duration of treatment and to concentration.

The one I can't find at all is "Winter diseases of cultured tilapia" - Paperna, 1984

I can find references to it all over, but not the report itself.

 

[Humblefish]

@Brew12 I'll try to get a hold of it.

 

[Brew12]

@Brew12 I'll try to get a hold of it.

I just got a copy... reading through it now. Not conclusive, but a quick glance shows it as very interesting.

 

[Humblefish]

I just got a copy... reading through it now. Not conclusive, but a quick glance shows it as very interesting.

Email it to me?

 

[Brew12]

Email it to me?

Already did, check your Humblefish account.

 

[Humblefish]

Already did, check your Humblefish account.

Got it. Thanks!

 

[KEITH FERGUSON]

I have a question, Would it be ok to mix Copper safe and Copper power in the same tank. They are both Chelated Copper. I've been using copper power, but my supplier ran out, but I can get Copper Safe......
Thanks....

 

[KEITH FERGUSON]

I have a question, Would it be ok to mix Copper safe and Copper power in the same tank. They are both Chelated Copper. I've been using copper power, but my supplier ran out, but I can get Copper Safe......
Thanks....

Sorry for the double post......