Copper Vanishing?

[fretfreak13]

Hey all, I have about 1000g fish system that I'm trying to copper treat. Its getting to the point where I'm spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars a month dumping copper into this system via BRS dosing pump and its literally disappearing. I'm using an API AND a Salifert kit to test and its only reading at about .10. I've tried different brands of copper as well. This has been going on for months and I'm fed up with it, where is all this copper going to? I know I don't have a high post count here on R2R, but I have been in the hobby for many years and I am by no means a noob, but there is always something to learn every day. This system has been up and running going on three years now. I need some ideas and suggestions here, please.

 

[KoleTang]

It could be getting absorbed into sand/rock. Are you running carbon?

 

[TJ's Reef]

OK, I'll bite...lol I'm assuming that its a Fish Only system correct ? And if so do you have 100's of pounds of Live Rock and Coral Sand in there ? This would be my logical guess to where its going. Interested in this/your story now.

Cheers, Todd

 

[Reefing Madness]

My guess is the glass and rock are soakin it up. Glass not alot, but if you got a crap load of rock, thats my bet.

 

[fretfreak13]

Yes, it is a fish only. No carbon. There is a large Blue Fin biopellet reactor and a 4ft down draft skimmer. It is run with six filter socks that are washed in a washing machine when dirty and then treated with Siodium Thiosulfate to remove harmful chemicals before coming back in contact with the system. There is about 150lbs total of mixed fake coral and LR in the whole 1000g system, and maybe about 200 lbs of sand. I expected that the sand/rock would absorb some of the copper, but the amount being put into this system is ridicules. As well, the sand and rock have been in the system for the whole three years its been running. Wouldn't it eventually become saturated and no longer absorb any more copper? I'm not exaggerating when I'm saying hundreds of dollars a month. :squigglemouth: Thanks for the help you guys, I'm seriously scratching my head (and wallet) here.

 

[fretfreak13]

Whoops, not sure how to edit posts here. The tanks in the system are all acrylic, there is nothing that is glass. Cheers!

 

[miyags]

Is this a display tank or a holding system.you shouldn't have to treat a display with copper for months on end. If its a holding type system,I'd scrap the sand and live rock.

 

[beaslbob]

macro and micro algae will suck out a lot of copper.


my .02

 

[fretfreak13]

Its a holding system, not a display. There are no macro algae's plumed into this system, and it is very well kept of any unwanted algae's. No cyano issues. Literally, I'm stumped. Aside from rock/sand absorbing it, which I can't see it really being possible with the amount of copper we put in and how long these rocks have been exposed to these conditions, are there any other possibilities? For some reason would copper evaporate? Bind to something and be skimmed out? I'm so stumped, I need some suggestions that are a bit out of the ordinary.

 

[miyags]

Ya know I think Vivid aquarium said on their site something about not using an air stone because it breaks down medications quicker. So maybe it's the skimmer?

 

[fretfreak13]

Could you source me to that, miyags? I'd like to look into it more. I can't think of a possible way to run this system skimmer-less since its generally pretty heavy stocked. That as well, o2 levels would need to be kept up. While we don't use air stones, there are about 20 powerheads and of course the skimmer.

 

[mcarroll]

The copper compounds used typically oxidize pretty quickly. Are you using copper prophylactically? I've never had to treat a system that large for that long, but I can tell you that when treating a system that large, it's definitely normal for it to take daily maintenance to keep a lethal/effective dose going.

This should be a good read:
FA165/FA165: Use of Copper in Marine Aquaculture and Aquarium Systems

One small, excellent quote:

Maintaining target concentration levels of copper can be challenging. Keeping copper concentrations high enough is difficult for many reasons. Water has numerous dissolved compounds (for example, bicarbonate ion (HCO3-), which can readily "combine" with copper and remove copper from solution.

You just have a large system, so you have a "big challenge" vs a normal one.

Hope this helps!

-Matt

P.S. It's not sticking to the rocks or glass, etc. That links pretty well explains it.

P.P.S. Living in copper-water isn't great for the health of many fish...downright lethal to some. If they are in this system for any length of time, I'd seek a better way than copper.

 

[fretfreak13]

Sorry for the late response. Thank you Matt, that's the kind of help I was hoping for! Sitting down to read that article now. Yes, this system is coppered constantly because new fish come and go quickly. We use it as a holding/preventive quarantine system for all new fish. The fish (that I know of, dragonets, seahorses, etc.) that don't handle copper well are not put on this system when they arrive. Do you have any suggestions for a better way to treat incoming fish on a massive scale other than copper? Unfortunately, since this system is all plumbed together, I don't feel comfortable just using the "watch and wait" approach before treating.

 

[AdamSabina]

Rock can absorb LOTS of copper. $1000s of dollars of copper. If it a fish only system I'd skip the copper and save some money. Try hypo salinity. Assuming no sharks or rays it safer and almost as affective. And WAY cheaper. The only unsafe thing is that when you switch back to regular salinity do it SLOWLY. Since it's your display I remove 50gallons of salt water daily until the salinity reaches 1.010-1.015 (debated do you research). Then for going up I'd just add 10-20 gallons a day or regular salt water.

 

[mcarroll]

Hypo salinity doesn't work for most common parasites unless used as a shock therapy. A freshwater dip is more effective. (And I would pass every fish through a freshwater dip.)

To the OP, this sounds like a perfect app for UV. Properly sized and installed and maintained they can be extremely effective.

-Matt

 

[fretfreak13]

We actually do run large UV sterilizers on the system. They have just been upgraded within the past year or so, so that is also something that is already been running. =) Thanks for the help and suggestions, that article really helped out. Unfortunately on the large scale that we run this system it really seems that a combination of copper and UV is the best for what we're doing, but at least I've got a better handle on why its costing us so much. That helps the head...but not the wallet. haha Really appreciate all the input, thank you everyone.