Copper VS fallow

[Wildreefs]

when dealing with ich, why is 76 days fallow for all ich stages to hatch necessary (or preferable) but 30 days copper is sufficient in the same scenario, 30 days copper with no transfer to sterile tank after 30 days.


Even in copper, wouldn’t they need 76 days to hatch and susceptible to copper?
Thanks

 

[cmcoker]

I think the cysts become damaged after 30 days in copper, someone will correct me if I'm wrong, lol

 

[Hermie]

30 days copper is for the fish which you would remove from the tank after treatment. that same tank from which the fish leaves treatment could have tomonts that fell off the fish and will hatch within that tank after the fish leaves. (if the copper levels were not sustained through their hatching)

Is this clear? 30 days is for the FISH in a separate tank. 76 days is for the TANK which you are "Treating" by going fallow until all ich hatches and dies.

 

[Wildreefs]

Not clear. From what I read on here, no chemicals, fallow 76 days. (No fish, no chemicals)

Fish in display, copper, 30 full days.

 

[Hermie]

Not clear. From what I read on here, no chemicals, fallow 76 days. (No fish, no chemicals)

Fish in display, copper, 30 full days.

So what happens with the second point, the Ich falls off the fish and while it's "swimming" it dies in the copper-water. Ich won't stay on the fish for longer than 30 days, however reef tanks don't do that because we don't treat Displays with copper medications. That kind of threw me off with your question.

Does that make sense?

The problem with treating the Display with copper is that there could have been ich tomonts already encysted before you start treatment. And they might not hatch until after the 30 days. So theoretically it's possible that an "ich infestation" could survive 30 days copper in a display tank, it's just that any ich already on the fish would not survive the 30 days.

Even in copper, wouldn’t they need 76 days to hatch and susceptible to copper?

^ Yes

 

[Gablami]

The more appropriate comparison would be copper vs TTM. Fallow periods are treating the tank. Copper and TTM are treating the fish.

 

[Rover]

Not clear. From what I read on here, no chemicals, fallow 76 days. (No fish, no chemicals)

Fish in display, copper, 30 full days.

If you put copper in your display you are going to kill the coral, the inverts, many forms of pods that live in the tank, and pretty much everything else except some of the denitrifying bacteria. (Or even that? Someone else might know) Fallow treatment is not an ich treatment for fish, its an ich treatment for the tank to make sure when you reintroduce your healthy fish they don't catch ich.

Fallow is simple; Ich can't complete its life cycle without a fish to host it. 76 days is the quasi-agreed on time required to make sure all ich has gone through its cycle and died without finding a fish to let it recyst the tank.

Copper treatment in a separate tank is 30 days to make sure all the ich dies before it can complete its life cycle. Then you monitor them while the tank completes its fallow cycle.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Actually, your observation is correct. Technically, we should be keeping our fish in copper for 76 days, to be safe. But, this would be very hard on the fish and I would wager to say that few would do well in copper for so long.

The longest known ich strain was the infamous 72-day life cycle... which is where the 76-day fallow recommendations came from. But, that was under very specific conditions... generally speaking *most* strains of ich will complete their life cycle within 30 days in a home reef scenario.

There is a risk vs. reward aspect to the 30 day recommendation. Long enough to outlast *most* strains of ich, but not so long that the fish starts to deteriorate in the copper (which is a toxin, and not so great for the fish in any case). After 30 days, you should observe the fish for at least another two- three weeks copper-free to be sure it was successful.

This is why the 14-day copper exposure followed by transfer to a second QT is such an good alternative. Less exposure for the fish to toxic copper, and less likely of encountering a strain of ich that remains encysted for more than 30 days.... you are transferring the fish AWAY from any encysted parasites.

Copper ONLY kills ich in the free-swimming stage after they emerge from the cyst. The copper acts as a shield, but does not kill the parasites that are already on the fish, or that have encysted in the tank. By transferring the fish away after 2 weeks you’ve allowed the parasites on the fish to feed and drop off... but no new ones are able to attach and the fish is removed from the environment which could still contain dormant cysts that may release after the copper is removed.

 

[drstardust]

Actually, your observation is correct. Technically, we should be keeping our fish in copper for 76 days, to be safe. But, this would be very hard on the fish and I would wager to say that few would do well in copper for so long.

The longest known ich strain was the infamous 72-day life cycle... which is where the 76-day fallow recommendations came from. But, that was under very specific conditions... generally speaking *most* strains of ich will complete their life cycle within 30 days in a home reef scenario.

There is a risk vs. reward aspect to the 30 day recommendation. Long enough to outlast *most* strains of ich, but not so long that the fish starts to deteriorate in the copper (which is a toxin, and not so great for the fish in any case). After 30 days, you should observe the fish for at least another two- three weeks copper-free to be sure it was successful.

This is why the 14-day copper exposure followed by transfer to a second QT is such an good alternative. Less exposure for the fish to toxic copper, and less likely of encountering a strain of ich that remains encysted for more than 30 days.... you are transferring the fish AWAY from any encysted parasites.

Copper ONLY kills ich in the free-swimming stage after they emerge from the cyst. The copper acts as a shield, but does not kill the parasites that are already on the fish, or that have encysted in the tank. By transferring the fish away after 2 weeks you’ve allowed the parasites on the fish to feed and drop off... but no new ones are able to attach and the fish is removed from the environment which could still contain dormant cysts that may release after the copper is removed.

^This. There is lore on this forum that copper can damage tomonts with extended exposure (30 days), but I have not seen actual studies supporting this. Perhaps someone could provide a link.

 

[Wildreefs]

^This. There is lore on this forum that copper can damage tomonts with extended exposure (30 days), but I have not seen actual studies supporting this. Perhaps someone could provide a link.

This is what I thought I read in a previous post.

To the previous replies, there is nothing but fish in the tank. No coral, invert, cuc, nothing but fish.

It is my display tank, it has been almost a month of copper, considering another 3 weeks and pulling the plug

 

[mfinn]

The longest known ich strain was the infamous 72-day life cycle... which is where the 76-day fallow recommendations came from. But, that was under very specific conditions... generally speaking *most* strains of ich will complete their life cycle within 30 days in a home reef scenario

I'm wondering how many cases of this 72 day ick strain have been documented?

Is this super strain of ick common?
What's the percentage of it being around vs. the shorter lived strain?

 

[ngoodermuth]

I'm wondering how many cases of this 72 day ick strain have been documented?

Is this super strain of ick common?
What's the percentage of it being around vs. the shorter lived strain?

It was one study, and the circumstances were purposely made to be favorable to lengthen the lifecycle.

 

[mfinn]

It was one study, and the circumstances were purposely made to be favorable to lengthen the lifecycle.

Normally I'm a patient person, but in this case I'm losing it.
My 233 is at day 68 of being fallow.
I had either ick or velvet.
The 14 remaining fish were moved into a 105 gallon tank and started copper.
They went through 41 days of copper at a minimum 1.92 ppm. Most of the time around 2.15 to 2.20.
Copper levels did fluctuate some because of the sand dishes for the 6 wrasses and probably also from the multiple sponge filters.
But testing twice a day and dosing when needed was done.
I may have to leave town for 2-3 weeks starting next week.
My wife can maintain to one tank, but she has said that dealing with the quarantine tank is not something she wants to do.
I really need to start moving the fish this weekend, but would hate to have gone through all this for nothing.

 

[4FordFamily]

Actually, your observation is correct. Technically, we should be keeping our fish in copper for 76 days, to be safe. But, this would be very hard on the fish and I would wager to say that few would do well in copper for so long.

The longest known ich strain was the infamous 72-day life cycle... which is where the 76-day fallow recommendations came from. But, that was under very specific conditions... generally speaking *most* strains of ich will complete their life cycle within 30 days in a home reef scenario.

There is a risk vs. reward aspect to the 30 day recommendation. Long enough to outlast *most* strains of ich, but not so long that the fish starts to deteriorate in the copper (which is a toxin, and not so great for the fish in any case). After 30 days, you should observe the fish for at least another two- three weeks copper-free to be sure it was successful.

This is why the 14-day copper exposure followed by transfer to a second QT is such an good alternative. Less exposure for the fish to toxic copper, and less likely of encountering a strain of ich that remains encysted for more than 30 days.... you are transferring the fish AWAY from any encysted parasites.

Copper ONLY kills ich in the free-swimming stage after they emerge from the cyst. The copper acts as a shield, but does not kill the parasites that are already on the fish, or that have encysted in the tank. By transferring the fish away after 2 weeks you’ve allowed the parasites on the fish to feed and drop off... but no new ones are able to attach and the fish is removed from the environment which could still contain dormant cysts that may release after the copper is removed.

Well-said, I concur, as usual.

 

[mfinn]

Another side of the story is when I moved all the fish out, I also removed all the corals into a holding tank with all new water and only a tiny bit of rock at the base of several corals.
I bleached the tank for 4 days.
I then filled it with all new water and completely new rock that had been cycling for a couple months.
Then I moved the corals back.

 

[ngoodermuth]

I mean, I guess it depends on how risk-adverse you are here. You COULD be ok, it will be around 69-70 days fallow which is pretty close to the recommendation. Also, the tank was sterilized, and I’m pretty sure that kills even the encysted stage if done properly.

But, remember clean up crew, coral skeletons, etc can also have encysted parasites as well. I’d say you would be pretty decent odds if you move them back now... but, the safest bet would be to wait until you return from being away.

 

[mfinn]

I mean, I guess it depends on how risk-adverse you are here. You COULD be ok, it will be around 69-70 days fallow which is pretty close to the recommendation. Also, the tank was sterilized, and I’m pretty sure that kills even the encysted stage if done properly.

But, remember clean up crew, coral skeletons, etc can also have encysted parasites as well. I’d say you would be pretty decent odds if you move them back now... but, the safest bet would be to wait until you return from being away.

Well after reading that the 72 day period was a lab created scenario ( created to see how long they could actually preserve a viable cysts ? ) and not in a hobbyist tank, I don't think there is much risk at all.
In fact I'm seeing the whole thing as a bit of hysteria.
And this is someone who has quarantined every fish for almost 25 years.

If you ask how I got ick/velvet in my tank if I did that?
I have added wild corals/inverts/macros to my tanks without quarantining them. ( but not anymore).

 

[ngoodermuth]

There has been some talk of cysts actually lasting longer in anaerobic areas of the tank as well (deep sand beds, rock crevices, etc) but with the sterilization you’ve done, I don’t think that should be an issue here.

It might be hysteria, or a “better safe than sorry” mentality; but since my own first fallow period failed (likely cross-contamination, though I did move the fish back two days early) I rarely take chances anymore. My second fallow period was 80 days.