Copperband butterfly help

4FordFamily · May 30, 2015

Alright guys, you're all bad influences... You have made me want to try a copperband.

The display I would be placing it in has aiptasia issues, so I decided to jump in to the ring with a copperband butterfly fresh off of my success with a Red Sea regal angel, several finicky and emaciated tangs on arrival (two powder blues and an Achilles that almost starved but live brine saved the day), a total of 9 leopard wrasses, and a moorish idol (although I cheated and got that one off of divers den and it ate from the first ten minutes in his tank).

I don't want to get cocky, I want to hear advice and success stories. Humblefish you scared me away almost from some of your accounts- what can you guys teach me?

I sourced it from live aquaria and its sourced from the Philippines (Indonesia was the other option and I know they both suck but if i recall, Philippines is the "queen of pigs" of the crappy regions since Australia isn't an option in the medium (3-4") range I am seeking).

3Twinklets · May 30, 2015

Copperband Butterfly's may or may not eat Aiptasia.
A large pod population would be great.
Try to buy one that you know is eating.
Mine eats well but is a slow feeder. So I feed him at night after most of the others have gone to bed.

Humblefish · May 30, 2015

The ones from Australia have the best chance of acclimating to aquarium life (and eating); but those will cost you some serious coin (for a CBB). Singapore would be my second choice, followed by Indonesia. Philippines is the last place you ever want to buy a fish (unless you know the transhipper); because they are completely unregulated there and will often use cyanide.

Once you get your specimen, offering live blackworms is going to be your best bet. You can also try mysis, clam, oyster, mussel. If you have access to live brine, that is grand. I would QT him and develop his feeding habits before placing into the DT.

4FordFamily · May 30, 2015

Humblefish said:
The ones from Australia have the best chance of acclimating to aquarium life (and eating); but those will cost you some serious coin (for a CBB). Singapore would be my second choice, followed by Indonesia. Philippines is the last place you ever want to buy a fish (unless you know the transhipper); because they are completely unregulated there and will often use cyanide.

Once you get your specimen, offering live blackworms is going to be your best bet. You can also try mysis, clam, oyster, mussel. If you have access to live brine, that is grand. I would QT him and develop his feeding habits before placing into the DT.

That was the plan. I'll call live aquaria and switch to an Indonesian cbb thanks for the advice

Oscaror · May 30, 2015

Mine died yesterday

wangspeed · May 30, 2015

Here's mine training in my sump to eat live blackworms. I moved him here originally because my yellow tang was attacking him, and he was swimming frantically. I kept him in this 3-4 gallon section of my sump so he wouldn't waste so much energy swimming, and hoped to get him eating. I thought he was a goner for a while. He wouldn't even eat blackworms at first, but finally came around. Here's a video of him chowing down on blackworms.

I eventually re-homed the yellow tang and moved my copperband to the 90 gallon display, where he is very happy, and has been for the last month. He chows down blackworms still, and nothing else. I'm happy to give them to him as long as he eats

loumaggs · May 31, 2015

They can be tricky, the key is getting a healthy specimen from a good shop, then further training it to take food better, there is no point in buying one which isn't eating as a challenge.

Further training in a separate tank with no competition is essential because it gives the fish a chance to recognise you and become a custom to feeding schedules/different foods without any competition

eatbreakfast · May 31, 2015

Getting one in person where you can see it eat is the one of the most important things you can do. In nearly all cases I have seen where the cbb is eating with gusto at the lfs it will do the same at your house.

IME the region where it was collected does not have as much impact as it did 10-15 yrs ago. Some off the best shipments I have dealt with in recent years have been from the Philippines, as far as survival rates. And this has been from a couple of different sources from there.

4FordFamily · May 31, 2015

thanks guys. Blackworms are everywhere in my house my fish eat them daily.

Humblefish · May 31, 2015

eatbreakfast said:
IME the region where it was collected does not have as much impact as it did 10-15 yrs ago. Some off the best shipments I have dealt with in recent years have been from the Philippines, as far as survival rates. And this has been from a couple of different sources from there.

A LFS I (currently) consult has had all sorts of problems with shipments from the Philippines. The fish arrive fine, but weeks/months later his customers complain the fish from that shipment just suddenly die (classic cyanide symptom). He's since forged a relationship with a transhipper over there and the problems have ceased.

eatbreakfast · May 31, 2015

Humblefish said:
A LFS I (currently) consult has had all sorts of problems with shipments from the Philippines. The fish arrive fine, but weeks/months later his customers complain the fish from that shipment just suddenly die (classic cyanide symptom). He's since forged a relationship with a transhipper over there and the problems have ceased.

My experience is also based on customer feedback, not just the stay in the lfs. Broadly stating that Philippines is the worst choice because there are some bad collectors, even though there are many good ones is akin to saying that online vendors are no good even though there are some bad ones even though there are many good ones.

A large part of the problem can even be the care they receive at the lfs. I know of 2 stores in my own area that tranship fish from the same Philippines supplier. One of my service customers would buy from both stores, but stopped buying from the one and not the other because the fish from one would die and the other wouldn't. But all fish came from the same supplier in the Philippines.

All too often it is easier for a fishkeeper, hobbyist, or even expert to blame someone else for why the fish die. Perhaps, it was residual exposure to copper in one lfs system and not the other store, or perhaps there is something the customer did, but to blame a collection point based on older techniques isn't really fair.

Humblefish · May 31, 2015

@eatbreakfast It's all about probabilities. Being the Philippines does not regulate collectors, the odds are higher of buying a fish that was exposed to cyanide. Conversely, being fish collecting is so heavily regulated in Australia... the odds are much lower. However, I'm sure somewhere in Australia somebody is illegally using cyanide to collect their fish; while somewhere in the Philippines another diver is trying to do it the "right way" via net collection.

eatbreakfast · May 31, 2015

Humblefish said:
@eatbreakfast It's all about probabilities. Being the Philippines does not regulate collectors, the odds are higher of buying a fish that was exposed to cyanide. Conversely, being fish collecting is so heavily regulated in Australia... the odds are much lower. However, I'm sure somewhere in Australia somebody is illegally using cyanide to collect their fish; while somewhere in the Philippines another diver is trying to do it the "right way" via net collection.

Actually stating that the Philippines is completely unregulated is false. For over the past 20yrs they have implemented the Cyanide Reform program which in part has an independent organization, perform random tests for cyanide use, of which published scientific literature has observed a dramatic decrease in cyanide collection in the Philippines.

Kworker · May 31, 2015

I'd avoid it unless you actually want one. I have a horrible aiptasia issue. I got a Copperband and had him in quarantine and eating prepared for several weeks. After I moved him over to the display he stopped eating prepared and only ate feather dusters and never touched the aiptasia. He went through the feather dusters, never went back to eating prepared and starved to death. I would order an army of peppermint shrimp.

Humblefish · Jun 1, 2015

eatbreakfast said:
Actually stating that the Philippines is completely unregulated is false. For over the past 20yrs they have implemented the Cyanide Reform program which in part has an independent organization, perform random tests for cyanide use, of which published scientific literature has observed a dramatic decrease in cyanide collection in the Philippines.

I am familiar with this program. It's about as credible as "MAC certification" was.

eatbreakfast · Jun 1, 2015

Humblefish said:
I am familiar with this program. It's about as credible as "MAC certification" was.

But the results have been studied and publshed in scientific literature as having actually had a big positive impact, so the data is far more trustworthy than anecdotes and information that is outdated by decades.

All too often information that was once true gets passed down and taken for gospel, when for very real reasons circumstances have changed.

Most of the data about how large of a percentage of Philippines fish had been caught through cyanide are from the early to mid eighties, but it still gets referenced with a degree of regularity because of operations that have ulterior motives, such as Sea Shepherd, or hobbyists parroting info that they heard awhile back and use anecdotal observations rather than updated data that actually does exist.

4FordFamily · Jun 1, 2015

Kworker said:
I'd avoid it unless you actually want one. I have a horrible aiptasia issue. I got a Copperband and had him in quarantine and eating prepared for several weeks. After I moved him over to the display he stopped eating prepared and only ate feather dusters and never touched the aiptasia. He went through the feather dusters, never went back to eating prepared and starved to death. I would order an army of peppermint shrimp.

I do have a couple prized feather dusters. He will be a temporary addition if he eats them. Are there any cbb that don't eat feather dusters?

Kworker · Jun 1, 2015

3FordFamily said:
I do have a couple prized feather dusters. He will be a temporary addition if he eats them. Are there any cbb that don't eat feather dusters?

I actually didn't have large ones you would buy, I am talking about the small ones that are hitchhikers that grow all around the live rock/overflow and in sumps. I am unsure if they will go after the large ones, I think if its a smaller CBB it may leave the larger dusters alone for quite some time.. Its funny that I answered this thread yesterday, about an hour after I picked up one from my buddies shop.

Humblefish · Jun 1, 2015

eatbreakfast said:
But the results have been studied and publshed in scientific literature as having actually had a big positive impact, so the data is far more trustworthy than anecdotes and information that is outdated by decades.

All too often information that was once true gets passed down and taken for gospel, when for very real reasons circumstances have changed.

Most of the data about how large of a percentage of Philippines fish had been caught through cyanide are from the early to mid eighties, but it still gets referenced with a degree of regularity because of operations that have ulterior motives, such as Sea Shepherd, or hobbyists parroting info that they heard awhile back and use anecdotal observations rather than updated data that actually does exist.

Just so we're clear... are you referencing programs initiated by the International Marinelife Alliance? Or some other group? "Cyanide Reform Program" is a little vague...

While it is true that I have been in this hobby for quite some time now (but not as long as Paul

); I keep myself updated by reading peer reviews on Google Scholar. I have learned over time that not every "study" is credible... some programs are more hype than substance. Some are just PR fronts and sometimes even scams.

Just to give you an example... For years, the Marine Aquarium Council and their "MAC certification" was touted as an effective monitor for the trade. Some LFS proudly displayed "we only sell MAC certified fish", and MAC had outlined on their website work with conservation officials, fisheries, importers, and wholesalers all over the world (including the Philippines.) MAC was issuing certificates of compliance like hot cakes, and they were instrumental in promoting certain "Cyanide Reform Programs". Come to find out, MAC never had the manpower to do any of the things it claimed; I will look for a direct link to the information quoted here later, but this basically says it all: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1792219

Interesting thing about the world we live in today is that everything is subjective. I think the only outcome of this conversation is to agree to disagree on the usage of cyanide in the Philippines nowadays.

eatbreakfast · Jun 1, 2015

Humblefish said:
Just so we're clear... are you referencing programs initiated by the International Marinelife Alliance? Or some other group? "Cyanide Reform Program" is a little vague...

While it is true that I have been in this hobby for quite some time now (but not as long as Paul ); I keep myself updated by reading peer reviews on Google Scholar. I have learned over time that not every "study" is credible... some programs are more hype than substance. Some are just PR fronts and sometimes even scams.

Just to give you an example... For years, the Marine Aquarium Council and their "MAC certification" was touted as an effective monitor for the trade. Some LFS proudly displayed "we only sell MAC certified fish", and MAC had outlined on their website work with conservation officials, fisheries, importers, and wholesalers all over the world (including the Philippines.) MAC was issuing certificates of compliance like hot cakes, and they were instrumental in promoting certain "Cyanide Reform Programs". Come to find out, MAC never had the manpower to do any of the things it claimed; I will look for a direct link to the information quoted here later, but this basically says it all: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1792219

Interesting thing about the world we live in today is that everything is subjective. I think the only outcome of this conversation is to agree to disagree on the usage of cyanide in the Philippines nowadays.

It is the Cyanide Reform Program headed by International Marinelife Alliance that I am referring.

While studies certainly can be slanted, by reading the published literature on a subject one can hopefully discern the truth in a matter. Particularly when the research cites the successes of the program in the Philippines, but also notes how the same strategies were not as successful in Indonesia, where many of the displaced Filipino fishermen setup shop after working the Philippines became too difficult.

To compare successfully run operations to the Marine Aquarium Council is also patently unfair. International Marinelife Alliance has been operating continuously since 1985 (30years)and modestly expanded, but utilizing government partnerships to financially punish offenders. IMA was also the organization that brought attention to the issue. On the other hand, MAC was closed down after barely making it 10 years and spent way too much time praising what they hoped to do and too much money advertising their network. MAC was also voluntary with too many participants in the chain opting not to participate. Whereas the Cyanide Reform Program is run with the government, participation occurs whether the supplier wants to or not, and if fails the cyanide test is subject to fine and increased testing.

In the forum you linked to about MAC the OP that is presenting the the info also notes that Indonesia is a worse offender, though his perspective is definitely slanted against the region as a whole.

Agreeing to disagree is fine, but ignoring more recent data because of a percieved bias by the contributors, but accepting other data by contributors that have a bias the other way is arbitrary at best.