CopperSafe: fine line or thick between therapeutic and lethal level?

[ScubaSkeets]

Hi folks!
Quick background: a week or so ago,, my Coral Beauty had ich. I dosed the tank with Fritz CopperSafe (tank only has fish...no corals or inverts yet). However, I under dosed the tank and unfortunately, the Coral Beauty died.

Now my Valentini Puffer has a few spots on it.

I checked the copper levels (API test) last night and it detected copper (1.0ppm), so i added approx 50ml of fritz CopperSafe (its a 125g tank with sand and live rock) and checked the copper level today. APU test still shows 1.0! (Jeesh...do all API tests suck?) I could order Salifert, but I think I need to do something now.

I believe that in order to get the copper to therapeutic levels, it has to be at 2.0, right?

I need to add more CopperSafe to the tank, but I do not want to overdose the tank and possibly kill the fish.

Is there a very fine line between therapeutic levels of CopperSafe and lethal levels? Or is that line wide enough to not worry if I put in a little too much CopperSafe?

 

[T-J]

Wait, did you dose copper to your DT?

 

[ScubaSkeets]

Wait, did you dose copper to your DT?

Yes. It does not have any corals or inverts yet and I do not plan on putting any in until the copper has been dissipated. Is that not ok?

 

[DaddyFish]

So far, every bottle of CopperSafe I've used has been spot-on when dosed as directed per volume.
And so far, every color chart test I've used (API, Salifert, Seachem) have totally disagreed about the copper level.
And... every digital copper test (Hanna, ITS/Exact iDip) I've done has been within acceptable limits of each other and shown the CopperSafe directions to be spot-on.

The target range is 1.5-2.0, but I prefer to hit 2.0-2.1 and keep it there. My best advice... If you're going to run copper (and I certainly DO), buy a digital tester.

If you're worried you may have seriously overdosed the copper, then do a 50% water change and wait for the tester to arrive.

 

[hds4216]

It's hard to dose copper in display because it's absorbed by the rock and the sand and is difficult to keep at the proper levels.

 

[DeepintheReef]

We tend to avoid copper in the display tanks as the rock will “absorb” copper and continue leaching it back into the water. But it can and has been done successfully many times. I would get it up to 2.0 and run for 30 days. Google each of your fish and “copper treatment” as some are sensitive to copper such as some wrasses.

When you finish running copper I would suggest several large weekly water changes to significantly reduce the copper levels. In addition, I would leave some cuprisorb running in the sump for a few months even if you’re testing zero on copper levels.

 

[DaddyFish]

Hi folks!
Quick background: a week or so ago,, my Coral Beauty had ich. I dosed the tank with Fritz CopperSafe (tank only has fish...no corals or inverts yet). However, I under dosed the tank and unfortunately, the Coral Beauty died.

Now my Valentini Puffer has a few spots on it.

I checked the copper levels (API test) last night and it detected copper (1.0ppm), so i added approx 50ml of fritz CopperSafe (its a 125g tank with sand and live rock) and checked the copper level today. APU test still shows 1.0! (Jeesh...do all API tests suck?) I could order Salifert, but I think I need to do something now.

I believe that in order to get the copper to therapeutic levels, it has to be at 2.0, right?

I need to add more CopperSafe to the tank, but I do not want to overdose the tank and possibly kill the fish.

Is there a very fine line between therapeutic levels of CopperSafe and lethal levels? Or is that line wide enough to not worry if I put in a little too much CopperSafe?

What was your initial dose of CopperSafe?

 

[T-J]

Yes. It does not have any corals or inverts yet and I do not plan on putting any in until the copper has been dissipated. Is that not ok?

Personally, I would never dose copper in my DT, unless it were a fish only setup. As others have said, it can leech back into the water over time...out of your sand and rocks.
If you do end up putting inverts, pods, corals, etc., and you're having a hard time keeping them alive, it very well could be the copper. That's why most people keep a separate QT system for treatments.

 

[ScubaSkeets]

What was your initial dose of CopperSafe?

Initial dose was 100ml. Last nights dose was 50ml

 

[Dkmoo]

my personal experience with Ich has been that we play fish doctor too often and what end up killing them is the stress we cause them by dosing/massive water changes/or moving them around from DT or HT

i've had about 8 cases of Ich - the first 3 i "treated" with copper in HT they all fish died, last 5 times i left them in the tank, kept everything, fed them a variety of nutritious food. 4 times they recovered, 5th time is happening right now - have a new yellow belly damsel that i added from LFS a week ago, has a couple of white spots - likely due to stress from new tank. Still eating well and swimming well so i'm leaving it alone. White spots got a bit bigger this week but also started to crust so looks like it's falling off soon.

Running filter socks now to help clear up the larva.

 

[hds4216]

my personal experience with Ich has been that we play fish doctor too often and what end up killing them is the stress we cause them by dosing/massive water changes/or moving them around from DT or HT

i've had about 8 cases of Ich - the first 3 i "treated" with copper in HT they all fish died, last 5 times i left them in the tank, kept everything, fed them a variety of nutritious food. 4 times they recovered, 5th time is happening right now - have a new yellow belly damsel that i added from LFS a week ago, has a couple of white spots - likely due to stress from new tank. Still eating well and swimming well so i'm leaving it alone. White spots got a bit bigger this week but also started to crust so looks like it's falling off soon.

Running filter socks now to help clear up the larva.

Ich theronts are about 20 × 50 μm, much too small for most filter socks to have any impact on. They also tend to stick to the substrate and only swim freely looking for a host for about 10-30 min in the morning.

 

[Dkmoo]

Ich theronts are about 20 × 50 μm, much too small for most filter socks to have any impact on. They also tend to stick to the substrate and only swim freely looking for a host for about 10-30 min in the morning.

ic - always thought it helped, maybe just b/c it keeps water cleaner.

anyway, good to know about the size and any direct impact (or lack thereof)

tahnks

 

[T-J]

A

my personal experience with Ich has been that we play fish doctor too often and what end up killing them is the stress we cause them by dosing/massive water changes/or moving them around from DT or HT

i've had about 8 cases of Ich - the first 3 i "treated" with copper in HT they all fish died, last 5 times i left them in the tank, kept everything, fed them a variety of nutritious food. 4 times they recovered, 5th time is happening right now - have a new yellow belly damsel that i added from LFS a week ago, has a couple of white spots - likely due to stress from new tank. Still eating well and swimming well so i'm leaving it alone. White spots got a bit bigger this week but also started to crust so looks like it's falling off soon.

Running filter socks now to help clear up the larva.

So instead of getting rid of the ich, you just deal with it as it comes up, which to date is 8 times?
Why not run fallow, get rid of it and QT fish so that you don’t reintroduce it?

 

[Dkmoo]

A

So instead of getting rid of the ich, you just deal with it as it comes up, which to date is 8 times?
Why not run fallow, get rid of it and QT fish so that you don’t reintroduce it?

a few reasons - some practical, some philosophical.

1) i don't have extra room for a real long term - QT set up. I typically have mixed feeling about QT as well - a temporary one i have doubts on if it really is helpful or if it adds more stress to the fish - Anything that i can temporarily set up given my limitations will most likely gonna be a barebone setup, hit or miss on property N cycle, very little natural habitat that the fish can feel comfortable in, and no biodiversity to ensure stability (here i mean stability is a lot more than our measurable params - temp, sal, ph, no3, etc...) . Sure we can pump the tank full of medicine but i'm not sure that's the best way to guarantee survival. in my next place when i have more room I'm going to more research and seriously consider a more appropriate/Permanent QT/HT set that that will address all my concerns.

2) I also would not have room to temporarily house the fish and go fallow.

3) Knowing the above limitations, i know i had to find alternatives to ich so focused on making fish healthy and stress free and having faith that their immune systems can fight it off. 4 of the 8 were from my old place when i was stocking the tank/being a fish noob. 2 of the 8 were from the stress of moving from my old place to my current place, All fishes recovered using the current method. next one was a random flare up in the current place but even that was 2 years ago. Over the years since the beginning I've lost a few other fish due to either freak accidents, ammonia spikes cuz i was being stupid, or being too greedy and getting stuff that i shouldn't have gotten. I have since learned from those mistakes but have not lost any fish due to ich or any other bacterial infection/illness since i started this alternative no QT method. (took a lot of inspiration from Paul B, who also does not QT). Current fish inhabitants has been with me since pre move or shortly after move so are 4-6 years old now and going strong.

4) the yellow belly is the last fish i'll add - it was replacing a neon goby that got stuck in my new Nero (bought a guard afterwards). I plan to keep this one alive so I do not have a need for QT going forward. I honestly do not foresee adding any more fish until i move to my new place and upgrade to a bigger tank/have more room to consider a permanent QT/HT appropriately. I still buy corals but those go thru a pretty thorough dip before adding it into my tank. I understand corals have their own disease too but the same concerns/limitations apply as well in my current home

5) I further mitigate catastrophic tank risk by making sure i source from a clean store/local community.

Maybe I've been lucky, maybe there's some benefit to what i've been doing, but it's worked out so far.

 

[DaddyFish]

Initial dose was 100ml. Last nights dose was 50ml

150ml total for 125-gallons is correct, but you do have to consider the actual capacity of both the tank and sump, minus rock and substrate/sand. I assume you've done all that calculation to your satisfaction?

I have to say that despite having multiple color-sighted people check my copper test chart results, I was never confident in them. A digital test meter like the Hanna or ITS/Exact is the only way to go in my book.

In the interim, trust the dosing directions, pre-dose any water changes but do not pre-dose RO/DI added for evaporation. You'll be fine.

 

[T-J]

Maybe I've been lucky, maybe there's some benefit to what i've been doing, but it's worked out so far.

That was me. 20+ years and then BOOM...my luck ran out.
Now I QT/Treat all new inhabitants.

 

[Dkmoo]

That was me. 20+ years and then BOOM...my luck ran out.
Now I QT/Treat all new inhabitants.

noted.

yeah i'm not opposed to one, just don't have the physical space for one right now that I feel would be appropriate/helpful after how the first 3 died. When i do i want to make sure i do it right. when the time comes i'm sure i'll ask you for tips.