Coral color up

[Luis Figueroa]

I've read a bunch of threads of lights water parameters flow and temperature affecting color. What could be the problem if these measures are all covered. In my tank I'm dealing with light pale colors. Tank is as follows:
Ph:8.1
Sg:1.026
Ca:430
Alk:9.0
Mg:1320
Po4:0.04
Po3:unknown at the moment
Temp:77-78 swing through out the day
30 gallon cube(not drilled) with about 50 pounds of live rock (matured for 2 years from my previous tanks)
Equipment
Wp25
Rw4
T247 led 75%blue 50%whites
4x25 t5 aquaticlife fixture
Tunze ato
Jebao dosing pump(classic balling method)
Tank has new sand and hob emperor 400 filter. Had to downgrade from my 90 gallon.
Few snails and crabs
One turbo snails
4" radiata lionfish
4"yellow tang
I know the fish are a big specimen to be in the tank but no one wanted to buy them at half the cost I paid. The lfs also gives you nothing for them and so I'm forced to keep them until they grow out, fed very well and swimming around happily.
Corals are in the 25+ range zoas LPS and mostly sps.
So my question is with all that and my colors are not improving could the nitrates be affecting them? If not then what else could it be?

 

[morpheas]

What is the nitrate measurement? In my case it was trace element (namely K, Fe, Sr) deficiency along with nitrate deficiency. I attacked the problem in a couple of ways at the advice of a local reefer:

1. Started dosing KZ Trace Element Complex
2. Started feeding a little heavier, stopped carbon dosing and monitor PO4 and Nitrate and trying to bump those up with Phyto-Feast and Oyster-Feast along with pellets.

Doing this, I have seen some improvement. Things are not ideal yet because I am still struggling to bump my nitrate and PO4 up but there is definitely an improvement.

 

[Luis Figueroa]

I'm ordering a nitrate test kit today so I won't know that until mid next week I feed moderately heavy for the amount of fish in there.
Phytoplankton
Frozen mysis
Frozen seafood chunks
Benepet reef food
Brightwell coral amino acid once a week.
From my understanding the part c of the balling method has trace elements already in it. I'm not too certain about that it's just what I heard.
Maybe this might help out for your nitrates to go up, read about stump remover as a boost for low nitrates.

 

[mcarroll]

Can you post some photos of the corals in question?

Also, can you measure the light intensity over your tank at a few places and report your results?

If you don't have a light meter, just download a free lux meter app to your smartphone, such as "galactica luxmeter" for IOS, to get started. Ordering a $15 handheld lux meter would be a good idea too. Search for the "LX-1010B"...it's what I and lots of other folks seem to use.

Po3:unknown at the moment

I think that was supposed to be NO3....let us know when that test kit comes in!

Temp:77-78 swing through out the day

A little low. Over a week or two, I would raise it a degree, maybe two.....up to 82º or so isn't "too much". I keep my system locked at 79.5 day/night, but in the past (when I had halides) it's been run successfully at a continuous 83º.

I don't think +/-1ºF swing is a problem.

30 gallon cube[...]The lfs also gives you nothing for them and so I'm forced to keep them until they grow out[...]

I agree that it's unfortunate, but you should try to get OK with letting those fish go for nothing so the store can re-sell them.

It's not easy to sell used fish and there are other risks to the store in taking them in...so it's fair IMO. We'd never give more than wholesale value for fish returns at the store where I used to work....and nothing at all for large fish as they are hard to sell. Your fish and the tank will be better off in the long run – therefore so will you be.

hob emperor 400 filter.

What's this doing? Do you plan to add a skimmer?

 

[Luis Figueroa]

This was supposed to be a Tri-color valida? But as you can see the green base it's not Tri-color hahaha

This is a pink milli but losing its pinky Ness.

Bubblegum digi the tips are green but the lower parts are pale white

A blue tort now turning green but only after it was purple in my tank for about 2 weeks.
I got my water tested at a lfs and said No3 is at 0 which is not good
All others are good in line.

The hob filter is my refugium since it's not drilled. No skimmer on this tank since I dose amino acids and phytoplankton. I do 2 x1 gallon water change every week.

 

[mcarroll]

Maybe switch from amino acids to nitrates...or perhaps a combo. Somehow get nitrates into your dosing routine.

The thing is gauging your progess with aminos is about impossible....with nitrates you can hit a target by using any decent nitrate test kit and know when to level off (or back down) your dosing. So nitrates are not only preferred over amino's by corals, but they are easier to use in a controlled way.

Start small with any changes no matter what you do.

 

[Luis Figueroa]

Thanks I definitely to that. I used stump remover to increase nitrates in my 90 gallon when I stripped all the nutrients out with too much gfo and carbon. I'll dose them both once a week at separate times to level each other out.

 

[mcarroll]

I'd work it out to a daily dose, if you can.

How much amino acids are you dosing right now and what brand?

 

[Luis Figueroa]

I use Brightwell aquatics and dose 20 drops on Sundays. I do that because of how the instructions are stated. Don't know them at the moment though.
I have one pump left on the jebao doser but amino acid bottles are expensive for a little amount so dosing daily hasn't crossed my mind. How would you dose it?

 

[mcarroll]

Just divide what you're dosing now by 7 days....you may have to dilute the product with some RODI water to get the volume up to dosable levels. Or just be there daily and dose 3 drops at a time. (20 drops ÷ 7 days...round up)

Again, dosing nitrates might be the way to go anyway....it should be fine to give amino's a back seat or even put them on pause.

Use the nitrate calculator in the KNO3 thread to get your dosage correct right off the bat. (It's a spreadsheet and google doc...however you want it.)

 

[Luis Figueroa]

Brilliant!! I never thought of diluting the amino acids.
I'll start on the nitrates first and see if supplementing aminos is even nessecary once the corals show improvements.

 

[mcarroll]

There'd be nothing wrong with making the transition gradual.

 

[Luis Figueroa]

Oh yeah I learned that the hard way when I first dabbed into the hobby. Added 1 ml of kno3 last night. Saw some major extended polyps from another blue tort I got last week! = ) not saying that that is all it needed but it's a great indicator.

 

[MrD]

I have experienced similar bleaching using LED's when the intensity has been too high. I reduced the intensity of my lights by 50% of where I was running them and slowly ramped them back up. I have yet to experience any issues by reducing the light level in such an immediate way. You'll be able to tell if the light is too low when your soft corals begin to stretch and reach for the light. You could reduce the LED intensity to half of what you are running and let it run there for a week to monitor the effects. If there are no ill effects keep running them there until you see any. It will likely takes weeks before you notice improvement in the color. The first positive sign you should notice is an iridescence developing in the skin. It could take upwards of a year for the color to fully develop.

 

[Luis Figueroa]

I have experienced similar bleaching using LED's when the intensity has been too high. I reduced the intensity of my lights by 50% of where I was running them and slowly ramped them back up. I have yet to experience any issues by reducing the light level in such an immediate way. You'll be able to tell if the light is too low when your soft corals begin to stretch and reach for the light. You could reduce the LED intensity to half of what you are running and let it run there for a week to monitor the effects. If there are no ill effects keep running them there until you see any. It will likely takes weeks before you notice improvement in the color. The first positive sign you should notice is an iridescence developing in the skin. It could take upwards of a year for the color to fully develop.

Lowered my leds to 50%blues and 30%whites. Also changes the time frame so that the whites only stay on for 2 hours starting at 1130 and full spectrum on at 130.

Maybe switch from amino acids to nitrates...or perhaps a combo. Somehow get nitrates into your dosing routine.

The thing is gauging your progess with aminos is about impossible....with nitrates you can hit a target by using any decent nitrate test kit and know when to level off (or back down) your dosing. So nitrates are not only preferred over amino's by corals, but they are easier to use in a controlled way.

Start small with any changes no matter what you do.

I've read in another thread on reef central that nitrate dosing as some affects on phosphates, do you know of this being true? It also read that some tanks thrive on high nitrates and low phosphates. It was called where should i keep nitrates for the best sps colors. Reason for the question comes after when I Dosed pkno3 phosphates went to 0.0 but nitrates shot up to 25!! Corals look great for some reason, PE on all corals, fluorescent pigment on coral skin although green it's still something happening. Nothing is receding or showing disapproval (at the moment) even my clam and red linkia starfish are looking good.

Still I feed heavy in hopes of raising phosphates to something detectable.
Haven't Dosed any amino acids since the beginning of this post. As far as growth goes I couldn't tell you since I stare at my tank for about 4 hours after work everyday hahaha

 

[jsker]

Nitrates and phosphate and long with trace elements play a big roll in corals
Nitrates you need them, and corals like the around 3 to 5 ppm if you got a bit higher no sweat
Phosphates need to be below .02 ppm to a trace.
Trace elements really helped my coral really color up
I feed heavy with a mix of frozen along with reef nutrition oyster feast, roti feast, and R.O.E. bleaching is cause by to much light or not enough. I was running a simple LED and switched to a higher end LED and my corals have not every looked better. I dose the balling method also and I have noticed when my phosphate start getting above .04 pmm they start looking bad and even start bleaching.

I use the AquaForest product line and I am very happy with the look of my tank,

Chasing number will only frustrate a reefer but finding that happy place for your reef is the key. each system is different and I keep a log when I take my numbers.

 

[mcarroll]

Phosphates are a critical building block for new cells in almost all life forms.

So growth/reprodution of any and all critters, including corals = PO4 consumption.

"Nitrogen cycling in corals: the key to understanding holobiont functioning?"
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.tim.2015.03.008

Along with the earlier link , these two articles make a good combo!

"Uptake of dissolved free amino acids by the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillate"
http://dx.doi.org/10.1242/jeb.012807​

when I Dosed pkno3 phosphates went to 0.0 but nitrates shot up to 25!!

You simply over-dosed KNO3 and/or ran your dose up too quickly. GO SLOW.

For comparison, I'm getting pretty good results so far (it's early...maybe a month in) and I have never registered free nitrates on a test kit so far.

FYI: Into a 100 gallon system, I'm dosing 10mL of KNO3 once a day, adding 20 drops of diy amino acids (about 5mL/week) along with regular feedings. I have almost no fish, so I may have to figure something out to get more PO4 into the system....it registered 0.0 on the Hanna meter for the first time last time I tested.

 

[morpheas]

I have almost no fish, so I may have to figure something out to get more PO4 into the system....it registered 0.0 on the Hanna meter for the first time last time I tested.

PhytoFeast did it for me. Added according to directions and got phosphates raising slowly.

 

[Luis Figueroa]

Phosphates are a critical building block for new cells in almost all life forms.

So growth/reprodution of any and all critters, including corals = PO4 consumption.

"Nitrogen cycling in corals: the key to understanding holobiont functioning?"
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.tim.2015.03.008

Along with the earlier link , these two articles make a good combo!

"Uptake of dissolved free amino acids by the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillate"
http://dx.doi.org/10.1242/jeb.012807​

You simply over-dosed KNO3 and/or ran your dose up too quickly. GO SLOW.

For comparison, I'm getting pretty good results so far (it's early...maybe a month in) and I have never registered free nitrates on a test kit so far.

FYI: Into a 100 gallon system, I'm dosing 10mL of KNO3 once a day, adding 20 drops of diy amino acids (about 5mL/week) along with regular feedings. I have almost no fish, so I may have to figure something out to get more PO4 into the system....it registered 0.0 on the Hanna meter for the first time last time I tested.

Overdose is more than likely the case. No ill affect on color so for so I'll just let it reduce or deplete by itself. Probably do a water change to help it out.

 

[mcarroll]

Yeah, the PO4 depletion is the only "problem"....some corals don't seem to react to this, but some do...so keep your eyes open. (Leathers mostly, in my experience.)

The increase in NO3 to 25ppm I would not worry about. It's probably making the PO4 depletion more tolerable!! Seriously.