Coral quarantine, advice you already know

[living_tribunal]

I’m a complete and utter noob to this hobby. There isn’t even a living piece of matter in my dt other than nitrifying bacteria.

I set up a little 10G qt frag tank for my first frag purchases.

In the first two weeks of owning corals, I’ve encountered aptasia, bubble algae, and Bryopsis.

All of this garbage would have already made its way to my display tank without a frag quarantine.

Ignore quarantining frags at your own risk.

 

[Old Fritz]

There was a lfs near me that used to qt their corals well. It was the one store I actually trusted with qt even for fish (I know i shouldn't trust any store but still). Sadly they went out of business a year ago

 

[homer1475]

The problem with any type of QT coral or fish is they are typically setup in a hurry, don't have the required lighting, and don't have the proper flow for the coral, or proper parameters for said corals.

I've never QTed corals. Pop off the plug they came in on, dip in your favorite dip, glue to new plug, place in DT. Haven't had an issue in the many years I've been in the hobby.

The way everything is taken these days with everything having to be so sterile(dead dry rock, dead dry sand, QT everything, etc, etc), I feel is the reason most of the new to the hobby people fail. The world is a so very not sterile enviroment, the ocean is filled with living bacteria and creatures we have never seen. Our aproach to the hobby should not be so sterile too.

 

[Mortie31]

I’ve encountered aptasia, bubble algae, and Bryopsis.

All of this garbage would have already made its way to my display tank without a frag quarantine.

Ignore quarantining frags at your own risk.

That’s food to the correct clean up crew...

 

[NeSsyAqua]

Same here I've never quarantined my corals. I just dip them and brush them off. Never had any pest that got in my tank. Well maybe one piece of those little starfish and a aiptasia anemone but I got them off without a problem.

 

[living_tribunal]

The problem with any type of QT coral or fish is they are typically setup in a hurry, don't have the required lighting, and don't have the proper flow for the coral, or proper parameters for said corals.

I've never QTed corals. Pop off the plug they came in on, dip in your favorite dip, glue to new plug, place in DT. Haven't had an issue in the many years I've been in the hobby.

The way everything is taken these days with everything having to be so sterile(dead dry rock, dead dry sand, QT everything, etc, etc), I feel is the reason most of the new to the hobby people fail. The world is a so very not sterile enviroment, the ocean is filled with living bacteria and creatures we have never seen. Our aproach to the hobby should not be so sterile too.

Every frag tank has to start somehow. For mine, i added pieces of rock from my dt, a clean up crew, and cycled before adding any frags.

I disagree regarding ensuring no pests and disease make it to your tank. Bryopsis and aptasia are not just ugly but pose a risk to the health of your coral. Not only that, but tomonts potentially present on frags/plugs pose an ever greater threat to the health of your livestock.

Most all of this stuff can be prevented for the most part with an adequate quarantine system. My coral and fish are much happier and healthier with a substantially lower threat of flukes, ich, velvet, brook, aptasia, and Bryopsis. It’s also nice not having to worry about that stuff. Our tanks are not the ocean, we need to keep our environments clean to provide a good life for the livestock.

 

[living_tribunal]

That’s food to the correct clean up crew...

I’ve never seen a fish eat Bryopsis, not even tangs. Some of us don’t want the risk of emeralds eating our coral either to get rid of the bubble algae. Same goes for peppermint shrimp and aptasia.

 

[Mortie31]

I’ve never seen a fish eat Bryopsis, not even tangs. Some of us don’t want the risk of emeralds eating our coral either to get rid of the bubble algae. Same goes for peppermint shrimp and aptasia.

We all run our tanks the way we want to, I don’t quarantine anything, but if you have strong opinions like yours you can expect strong opinions in return.. especially from a self proclaimed newbie... good look with the hobby and enjoy it...

 

[Mortie31]

tomonts potentially present on frags/plugs pose an ever greater threat to the health of your livestock

They may do, but the jury’s certainly still out on that claim, I’m assuming after every batch of corals you quarantine for a full 76 days you are fully breaking down your frag system and bleaching every hard surface. Also remembering if you add a single frag/ snail to the system your 76 day torment clock starts again.

 

[Katrina71]

I don't QT either ;Nailbiting

 

[Mortie31]

Some of us don’t want the risk of emeralds eating our coral either to get rid of the bubble algae. Same goes for peppermint shrimp and aptasia.

Where are you getting your knowledge from? Biodiversity and using natural pest control adds greatly to your system, I’ve got about 50 crabs, a dozen or so peps, 100 + snails, wrasse, a tang, Blennies and nitrates of 20ish PO4 of 0.1 yet I have no algae, no aips, no bryopsis, no versatile snails(that I know of) no manjanos, I’ve i don’t use any chemicals to control pests or algae or to quarantine fish... I let nature look after its self... but that’s my way of running my tank

we need to keep our environments clean to provide a good life for the livestock.

Where do you get this from? Please share any research as I have never seen this. I’d argue the exact opposite and people trying to have clean tanks, create an unnatural balance that weakens immune systems and exposes tank inhabitants.

 

[living_tribunal]

Where are you getting your knowledge from? Biodiversity and using natural pest control adds greatly to your system, I’ve got about 50 crabs, a dozen or so peps, 100 + snails, wrasse, a tang, Blennies and nitrates of 20ish PO4 of 0.1 yet I have no algae, no aips, no bryopsis, no versatile snails(that I know of) no manjanos, I’ve i don’t use any chemicals to control pests or algae or to quarantine fish... I let nature look after its self... but that’s my way of running my tank

Where do you get this from? Please share any research as I have never seen this. I’d argue the exact opposite and people trying to have clean tanks, create an unnatural balance that weakens immune systems and exposes tank inhabitants.

The knowledge comes from numerous sources, namely @Humblefish, my LFS who contributes quite a bit to R2R quarantine content, BRS, and a lot of articles on the specific pests and diseases we aim to prevent or at least I hope to prevent.

You assumed incorrectly, the frag qt system I set up is a permanent one. Given how long coral quarantine time is, and how often you want to add corals to your main system, there is no reason to take it down nor bleach it.

Adding new corals or cuc members does not restart the clock like it does when quarantining fish. This is because tomonts that burst into free swimmers can't attach themselves to hard surfaces. If the free swimmer can't find a host then it will simply die after 11-13 days. Tomonts can only be created from fed trophonts which requires a fish being present. You can add new coral or cuc at any time without affecting the integrity of the quarantine process.

I think my gist is that for every 4-5 people that don't quarantine and report success, you have another person whose tank is crashing. It's just a game of russian roullette. Far too often do I see videos of people's tank covered in bryopsis reporting that absolutely none of their fish will eat it requiring a chemical solution such as flucanazole. Or ich has started running rampant from a new member rushed into their display tank. Ich can't make it's way to your display tank if it's not on any of the material you bring into it.

Since I am new, I'd rather play it safe to ensure the likelihood of any of this occurring is slim-to-none. There is a reason why major aquafarms now have stronger coral pest prevention controls such as Cherry Corals and why nearly every fish hatchery or large scale zoo aquarium have strict qt processes. It works.

 

[Mortie31]

@Humblefish is very respected for his work on fish quarantine, I wasn’t aware of it on coral Quarantine. Maybe you could link his research, especially if there is any around incidence of transmission through coral of ICK or velvet. Aips, algae etc are minor pests and I’m not bothered in the slightest about those as my CUC will make short order of those. This age old debate divides this hobby. With neither side being able to prove definitively, that there method is both safe, humane and promotes longer healthier fish lives, especially those who use chemoquarantine. There have been a few very long threads recently on quarantine and your views are shared by some, but not most, a lot quarantine fish, but far fewer both corals, inverts and fish, and the vast majority of both of these groups reside in the US. @Paul B has completely different views from yourself on this subject. Your way is one way of doing it, my non quarantining is another, but I choose to not give advice to others as I know it’s a controversial unproven area, and I don’t pretend to have the first hand knowledge to advocate it or justify it, it’s my chosen method of 15 years on the hobby..

 

[Mortie31]

There is a reason why major aquafarms now have stronger coral pest prevention controls such as Cherry Corals and why nearly every fish hatchery or large scale zoo aquarium have strict qt processes

Can you provide evidence to support that this actually works? what they have prevented? and how they know it was the quarantine that prevented it? Again I’m only interested in coral quarantine as it was what you raised in your original post. Thanks Paul

 

[living_tribunal]

@Humblefish is very respected for his work on fish quarantine, I wasn’t aware of it on coral Quarantine. Maybe you could link his research, especially if there is any around incidence of transmission through coral of ICK or velvet. Aips, algae etc are minor pests and I’m not bothered in the slightest about those as my CUC will make short order of those. This age old debate divides this hobby. With neither side being able to prove definitively, that there method is both safe, humane and promotes longer healthier fish lives, especially those who use chemoquarantine. There have been a few very long threads recently on quarantine and your views are shared by some, but not most, a lot quarantine fish, but far fewer both corals, inverts and fish, and the vast majority of both of these groups reside in the US. @Paul B has completely different views from yourself on this subject. Your way is one way of doing it, my non quarantining is another, but I choose to not give advice to others as I know it’s a controversial unproven area, and I don’t pretend to have the first hand knowledge to advocate it or justify it, it’s my chosen method of 15 years on the hobby..

And I understand that completely. What I'm a fan of and the only advice I'll give is to do what you think is best and works for you. If you don't quarantine, and haven't had a loss, then there is no reason to fix something that isn't broke.

Humblefishes coral/invert qt article covers the high level process very well. It's not hard to understand how to properly eliminate ich and velvet from coral and inverts when you know how ich works.

My premise, and belief, that is more so becoming fact is that you can completely prevent these diseases from entering your tank. Ich has to have hosts to survive, it dies without them. We know this for a fact through numerous scientific studies, namely for fish hatcheries. The industry relies heavily on ich prevention because it's one of the toughest things to prevent so they publish a ton of articles on it.

When your rock doesn't contain ich, your fish have all of the ich killed off of it proactively, and all tomonts have been killed from your coral/inverts via 45 days+ of isolation, there is literally no way it can enter your tank. This requires an all or nothing approach however. If I was to forego the coral qt, then I would be tempted to not qt the fish at all. They are at more risk as you mentioned without the immune system to keep the effects at bay.

When you do run an immunity approach, all it takes is one stressed fish, a temperature fluctuation, param change, or anything that could cause the tomont to say "it's time to break off". At that point, there is no immune system in the world that could defeat a massive outbreak.

Regarding bryopsis and bubble algae, the same logic applies although it's harder considering bryopsis can grow on frags themselves, not just the plugs. I'm less concerned with bryopsis despite it being harmful to coral because of the advancements of the flucanazole treatment, we also now have the science to prove its efficacy. It's more or less bubble algae I'm concerned with because it looks like an absolute nightmare to remove. I know many use vibrant but that seems very slow, intrusive, and potentially harmful to certain things.


For me personally, the peace of mind preventing all of this stuff entering my tank makes the hobby much more palatable than hoping for the best every time I add a frag.

I'd be happy to link some of the studies I read that helped fortify and create my qt plan.

I hope I'm not coming off as combative, that is not my intention at all. I'm in no position to tell other more advanced hobbyists how to conduct their business. I just know that for me personally, given the data, qting everything is a no brainer.

 

[Mortie31]

Regarding bryopsis and bubble algae, the same logic applies although it's harder considering bryopsis can grow on frags themselves, not just the plugs. I'm less concerned with bryopsis despite it being harmful to coral because of the advancements of the flucanazole treatment, we also now have the science to prove its efficacy. It's more or less bubble algae I'm concerned with because it looks like an absolute nightmare to remove. I know many use vibrant but that seems very slow, intrusive, and potentially harmful to certain things.

I’m firmly against using chemicals like flucanazole and vibrant (and several others) in our systems, especially for nuisance algaes or bacterial outbreaks that can easily be managed naturally, I think by using the sledgehammer that is antibiotics, antifungals and anti malaria drugs, they may kill the nuisance, but what are the long term effects to your system?? Biodiversity imo is so important for the long term health of a tank. I think the damage to corals done by CUC to corals is very exaggerated and to me falls into to the “old reefers tales” category. The reason I mention CUC is because one observation I have come to us that US reefers suffer far more than European ones in both of these pest areas, and one major contributing factor I believe is we have far more CUC and more diverse Cuc in our tanks than I see in most US tanks. As an example in my 800L system I have over 200 individual CUC animals, all put in to fulfil pest or algae control, these levels are very common in European tanks. I have no proof that my connection is correct but there is such a glaring difference in attitude in this area and levels of pests that I think there is credence in it.

 

[living_tribunal]

Can you provide evidence to support that this actually works? what they have prevented? and how they know it was the quarantine that prevented it? Again I’m only interested in coral quarantine as it was what you raised in your original post. Thanks Paul

There are no major studies produced for professional quarantine processes directly applied towards inverts and coral nor it's efficacy. What you will find is that 95% of professional zoo aquariums have quarantine processes in place with a minimum of 30 days in quarantine and the majority proactively using prophylactic treatment: https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Current_Practices_in_Public_Zoos_and_Aquaria

A study by the University of Florida on marine ich and its impact on marine aquariums and commercial mariculture recommends to quarantine marine plants, invertebrates, live rock, substrate, and corals before adding them to a system.

Furthermore, they found that post infection immunity for surviving fish only lasted for 6 months and these fish would remain as a carrier infecting new fish to the system. So broadly speaking, a fish is only immune to ich after they've been infected. So if you're lucky, as many have reported, and your fish survived ich, then that impact only lasts for 6 months.

http://agrilifecdn.tamu.edu/fisheries/files/2013/09/Cryptocaryon-irritans-Infections-Marine-White-Spot-Disease-in-Fish.pdf

However, by simply knowing how ich operates, and its life cycle, it's straight forward on how to prevent it altogether. The science clearly shows that you can 100% eradicate ich by providing ample time for remaining tomonts to die from corals and inverts. You don't need a study to prove this other than studies testing the life cycles of ich in the temperature ranges and salinity we maintain in reef tanks.

 

[living_tribunal]

I’m firmly against using chemicals like flucanazole and vibrant (and several others) in our systems, especially for nuisance algaes or bacterial outbreaks that can easily be managed naturally, I think by using the sledgehammer that is antibiotics, antifungals and anti malaria drugs, they may kill the nuisance, but what are the long term effects to your system?? Biodiversity imo is so important for the long term health of a tank. I think the damage to corals done by CUC to corals is very exaggerated and to me falls into to the “old reefers tales” category. The reason I mention CUC is because one observation I have come to us that US reefers suffer far more than European ones in both of these pest areas, and one major contributing factor I believe is we have far more CUC and more diverse Cuc in our tanks than I see in most US tanks. As an example in my 800L system I have over 200 individual CUC animals, all put in to fulfil pest or algae control, these levels are very common in European tanks. I have no proof that my connection is correct but there is such a glaring difference in attitude in this area and levels of pests that I think there is credence in it.

Bryopsis poses such a real threat to both the coral and livelihood of a tank that I'm simply not willing to risk it. You can quickly eradicate it ensuring your livestock is healthy. I have never seen any fish nor cuc that will eat it either. If you can show me one and some proof then maybe I'd reconsider. Otherwise, it's too much of a risk to my livestock and enjoyment of the hobby to even consider.

There are a million videos and reports of emeralds going to town on very expensive corals. It may be anecdotal but I've seen it too much to allow for the possibility of it to occur in my tank. Just a personal preference. Flucanazole is already used on fish and is very therapeutic, I think we'd know if there were any long-term externalities by now if they existed.

 

[Mortie31]

Bryopsis poses such a real threat to both the coral and livelihood of a tank that I'm simply not willing to risk it. You can quickly eradicate it ensuring your livestock is healthy. I have never seen any fish nor cuc that will eat it either. If you can show me one and some proof then maybe I'd reconsider. Otherwise, it's too much of a risk to my livestock and enjoyment of the hobby to even consider.

There are a million videos and reports of emeralds going to town on very expensive corals. It may be anecdotal but I've seen it too much to allow for the possibility of it to occur in my tank. Just a personal preference. Flucanazole is already used on fish and is very therapeutic, I think we'd know if there were any long-term externalities by now if they existed.

Algae eating hermit crabs, Mithrax crabs, my bristletooth tang lol you can try sally lightfoots as well as emeralds.. there is a natural solution to most pests if you want to look, as to CUC eating “expensive corals” imo it’s so exaggerated in the same way as angels and butterflies, used to be, I wouldn’t keep angels with master scolies but there perfectly fine with sps.. please don’t fall into the trap of sticking to reading threads of like minded reefers and believing everything you read on here, you will worry yourself to death and it will take a lot of enjoyment out of the hobby. As with so many things in this hobby there is no proof, just anecdotes, but off the top of my head I can’t think of an award winning tank winner that quarantines his corals...
As regarding the drugs used on your tank what impact do you think an anti fungal/ antibiotic has on the bacteria in your system and why is it that once people start down the chemical route they have recurring issues. Drugs are a sticking plaster over an imbalance in the biology/ chemistry of a tank, there not a sustainable cure. You will never keep algae out of a system by chemical means alone, that’s where grazers come in.. you obviously have researched quarantine have a look at the flip side and have an open mind about more natural ways to manage pests. We don’t keep sterile boxes of water and fish we keep mini ecosystems that are not facsimiles of the seas but our own ecosystems and nature finds a balance if we allow it and don’t pollute it with chemicals at every sign of a pest... have a read of @Paul B @Lasse @atoll tank threads and see other ways of doing things that aren’t based on chemical solutions... i know What I’m saying won’t land with you but for other people reading this thread it may sow a seed on that there are other ways of doing things... I’m out of here now, good luck on your reefing journey...

 

[living_tribunal]

Algae eating hermit crabs, Mithrax crabs, my bristletooth tang lol you can try sally lightfoots as well as emeralds.. there is a natural solution to most pests if you want to look, as to CUC eating “expensive corals” imo it’s so exaggerated in the same way as angels and butterflies, used to be, I wouldn’t keep angels with master scolies but there perfectly fine with sps.. please don’t fall into the trap of sticking to reading threads of like minded reefers and believing everything you read on here, you will worry yourself to death and it will take a lot of enjoyment out of the hobby. As with so many things in this hobby there is no proof, just anecdotes, but off the top of my head I can’t think of an award winning tank winner that quarantines his corals...
As regarding the drugs used on your tank what impact do you think an anti fungal/ antibiotic has on the bacteria in your system and why is it that once people start down the chemical route they have recurring issues. Drugs are a sticking plaster over an imbalance in the biology/ chemistry of a tank, there not a sustainable cure. You will never keep algae out of a system by chemical means alone, that’s where grazers come in.. you obviously have researched quarantine have a look at the flip side and have an open mind about more natural ways to manage pests. We don’t keep sterile boxes of water and fish we keep mini ecosystems that are not facsimiles of the seas but our own ecosystems and nature finds a balance if we allow it and don’t pollute it with chemicals at every sign of a pest... have a read of @Paul B @Lasse @atoll tank threads and see other ways of doing things that aren’t based on chemical solutions... i know What I’m saying won’t land with you but for other people reading this thread it may sow a seed on that there are other ways of doing things... I’m out of here now, good luck on your reefing journey...

What you're saying regarding inverts who eat bryopsis is not proven just as much those who say emeralds eat their coral. So who am I to trust? I've never seen a proven invert that will reliably eat bryopsis. Given how fast it spreads, I'm not willing to take the risk. Getting rid of bryopsis is not a cake walk, same goes for bubble algae.

I've been following @NCreefguy thread here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bryopsis-cure-my-battle-with-bryopsis-using-fluconazole.285096/

Fluconazole only eliminates things with a plant cell wall containing ergosterol, so ONLY algae is affected. It's impossible for it to have an impact on bacteria, fish, or coral.

I think I'm going to go with the 95% of professional aquariums on this one and continue to quarantine. If something is not present in your tank, it can't affect anything.