Could my rock have still been live?

Ryan115 · Sep 29, 2017

So I took down my 180g when I moved, put all of the rock and sand into bins, and sold the tank. That is how things have stayed for nearly 2 years.
The sand was wet/moist but not completely submerged and the rock was about 50/50 submerged, all in tank water. These bins sat in the garage, so temp likely fluctuated from ~40deg to 90+deg.

As I set up my new 90g, I rinsed and mixed all of the sand with hose water until it ran clear. It was then spread out to sun dry, and put back in the bin for 1 week.
The rock was sprayed down with the hose to remove as much sediment and die off as possible, then the rocks were also sun dried and stored for 1 week.
As it went into the tank, I added a small cup of sand from my LFS.

I have always started my cycle with the dead shrimp method, so I went for that again. I added 2 medium sized shrimp about 2 weeks ago, and they have rotted away.
During this time I was testing with an old API kit that has been out of date for a few years. Over that time I had all 0's for NH4, NO2 & NO3. Since I didn't think that I could trust the results of the expired test kit, the new kit came in yesterday, but is still showing all o's.

Could the rock have still harbored enough bacteria to prevent a cycle?
The only thing I can think to do to test this would be to get some Dr. Tim's (never used it before) and see how a known value is handled.

Sorry for being so long winded, and thank in advance for any thoughts or advice.

saltyfilmfolks · Sep 29, 2017

I don't think it stayed alive. But yea the dr tims ammonia is cheap.

Ryan115 · Sep 29, 2017

saltyfilmfolks said:
I don't think it stayed alive. But yea the dr tims ammonia is cheap.

I really didn't think that there was anyway that it was still alive, but all of the zeros are leaving my confused. I know API isn't the most accurate, but it should at least give a presence/absence.

If nitrifying bacteria are able to achieve a dormant state, as they are when in commercial bacterial additives, what stops them from achieving this in rock that is kept in wet/moist/humid containers? Would temperature still affect them in this state?

saltyfilmfolks · Sep 29, 2017

Ryan115 said:
I really didn't think that there was anyway that it was still alive, but all of the zeros are leaving my confused. I know API isn't the most accurate, but it should at least give a presence/absence.

If nitrifying bacteria are able to achieve a dormant state, as they are when in commercial bacterial additives, what stops them from achieving this in rock that is kept in wet/moist/humid containers? Would temperature still affect them in this state?

They are not dormant in a bottle.
It is posssble I suppose that deep in the rock a population did survive. But it's also possible that the shrimp method worked quickly too.

The sun drying should have gotten rid of tha moisture though

Ryan115 · Sep 29, 2017

saltyfilmfolks said:
They are not dormant in a bottle.
It is posssble I suppose that deep in the rock a population did survive. But it's also possible that the shrimp method worked quickly too.

The sun drying should have gotten rid of tha moisture though

I may have overstated the "sun drying" for the rocks. They were out in the direct sun for at least 2-3 hours, not sure if that would have dried out the interiors. The rock I have is a mix of fiji and haitian. The fiji definitely has some deep pores/crevices. If I am still not seeing anything by the end of the weekend, I will probably move forward with some Ammonium Chloride.

I was under the impression that the bacteria were dormant in the bottle. I've never used them, what is the shelf life?

saltyfilmfolks · Sep 29, 2017

Ryan115 said:
I may have overstated the "sun drying" for the rocks. They were out in the direct sun for at least 2-3 hours, not sure if that would have dried out the interiors. The rock I have is a mix of fiji and haitian. The fiji definitely has some deep pores/crevices. If I am still not seeing anything by the end of the weekend, I will probably move forward with some Ammonium Chloride.

I was under the impression that the bacteria were dormant in the bottle. I've never used them, what is the shelf life?

Ahh. Most folks leave them for weeks.

Dunno. Over a year i belive.

Test out your nitrate and nitrites. .

Ryan115 · Sep 29, 2017

saltyfilmfolks said:
Ahh. Most folks leave them for weeks.

Dunno. Over a year i belive.

Test out your nitrate and nitrites. .

I have been checking those out every day as well. All zeros.
I assumed it was false readings from the expired kit, but now I'm not sure.

saltyfilmfolks · Sep 29, 2017

That is a trip. Maybe it was time for a tank and it doesn't want to wait.

Ryan115 · Oct 3, 2017

I've still been testing with 0's for Ammonia and Nitrite, though I am now getting some low (at least API low) levels of Nitrate.
My Dr. Tim's should be here tomorrow, so we will finally see how fast this will process.
I'm thinking to bring it up to 2 ppm and see how it goes.
At least now I can track a known quantity. I'll probably just use Ammonium Chloride from now on.

Ryan115 · Oct 10, 2017

So I think I am even more confused now.
Prior to adding the Dr. Tims everything was low or 0.
Over the past week Ammonia went up to ~2ppm (though I only dosed enough to bring it up to 1) and has returned to 0. Nitrite went up to a little above 0.25ppm and is on its way down. Nitrate has remained at 0 until last night, and is now reading in the 20-30ppm range.
I realize the shrimp add an unknown quantity of ammonia to begin with. But I am very confused as to why I was getting such low readings before, but now Nitrate spiked to a level higher than what the input should allow. I am hesitant to add a second does of NH4Cl into the tank, but I guess if the nitrates go up significantly higher, I can just increase the size of the post cycle water change.
I am running all RODI into the system, but I guess that would be the next thing to check. Does anyone know if the API saltwater test are valid in freshwater?

kashman100 · Oct 10, 2017

I think the reagents are the same but you need to use the Freshwater color card for accurate tests

saltyfilmfolks · Oct 10, 2017

If you have zero tds coming out it's unlikely water is the issue. I'd suspect minor test error in both cases. Is also unlit the water is the source of nitrates.
Higher nitrates considering the rocks history is not surprising.
I'd bet they are cooking right along.
And yea. A big wc is a standard thing.

Ryan115 · Oct 10, 2017

So, better testing today. I'll claim sleep deprivation from hurricane Nate.
I think the high reading on NO3 was from having the tube too close to the card, as there is a substantial difference in the readings when they are touching the card. Another reason I have never been a fan of API (or any color change) tests and much prefer titration tests.
Today we have:
NH4, NO2, NO3 - all 0
pH-8.0
I'm going to add another 1ppm NH4Cl and see how fast it processed, and then call it done.
Thanks for helping with my sanity checks.

reeferfoxx · Oct 10, 2017

So your adding a drop of ammonia in a 90 gallon tank?

brandon429 · Oct 10, 2017

you needed to meme that with the messy hair history channel guy or sarc wonka either way that was comedic gold missed thought id helpfully point that out

cracker · Oct 10, 2017

I agree with Salty, were the cans containing the rock covered? If So they have been kind of "cooking" (different than curing) . Put some new water & a small power head in the bins.& cover them back up. Then test again in a week or so. You just might end up with nice clean low Po4 rock . I "cooked "a bunch of very old ate up with algae rock for 9 months. it came out nice & clean.

Ryan115 · Oct 10, 2017

reeferfoxx said:
So your adding a drop of ammonia in a 90 gallon tank?

No, I would be dosing about 10mL of Dr. Tims. That would give me about 1ppm in total tank volume.

brandon429 said:
you needed to meme that with the messy hair history channel guy or sarc wonka either way that was comedic gold missed thought id helpfully point that out

You are correct...

cracker said:
I agree with Salty, were the cans containing the rock covered? If So they have been kind of "cooking" (different than curing) . Put some new water & a small power head in the bins.& cover them back up. Then test again in a week or so. You just might end up with nice clean low Po4 rock . I "cooked "a bunch of very old ate up with algae rock for 9 months. it came out nice & clean.

The bins were covered, so it was cooking for about 2 years.
I havent checked PO4 yet, I figured it really doesnt matter much during cycling.