Crap - Please Advise - Black Spots

[bevo5]

Hi all. I've searched through the forum and found a bunch of threads on similar topics but I have compounding issues and would appreciate some advice.

I've had a blonde naso in QT for 21 days. I've done two rounds of Prazipro and she's eating Nori like a champ. She also loves brine shrimp. Since I've gotten her she has put on a ton of weight after coming in really skinny.

I posted about this fish a few weeks ago actually - and since then I've had no issues.

I've been debating whether or not to do curpramine up to this point since I hadn't noticed a single issue (I know..I know..)

Anyway.

Tonight I went in with a to take a peak and man - for the first time I noticed a ton of spots. In the black light they were whitish and I saw a few on the fins. SO, oh well - I drop in the first does of curpramine.

I took a closer look with a flashlight and realized I messed up - the spots are all black. They're mostly around the front half. Here's a photo: (the liverock was removed immediately after....tainted and in a bucket now...forever)

So - I'm not sure what it is or what to do. Over the past three weeks she's shown a lot of various color combinations but this doesn't seem like pigment. It's not ick...so black ick? Wouldn't the prazipro deal with that?

One other thread with a sick naso with similar spots mentioned bacteria infection? If I need to treat with other meds, do I need to do a 100% water change to get the curpramine out?

Any help is greatly appreciated. She was doing so well, this is going to be a gut punch.

 

[Triggreef]

They get odd coloration like that especially at night when sleeping which is what it looks like to me. If you saw white spots I would continue cupramine.

Black ich is actually a worm, and easily treatable with prazi. I believe black ich looks different, smaller specks.

Fwiw, naso are not easy imo. I only tried one, and it was similar to yours. Ate nori great and brine but nothing else. Put on weight for about 3 weeks in qt, then out of no where upside down.

 

[bevo5]

Thanks for the reply. I am hopeful it's coloration but they do appear to be raised up a bit. I just don't understand since I did two rounds of prazipro already (spaced 5 days apart). Now that the cupramine is in there I don't know what to do.

She's flinching a bit - nothing super dramatic - but in a cave and every so often gives a little flinch. I'm sure it's just that the copper is new and it's probably weird. Or perhaps she does have some ick and it's falling off? I don't know.

It seems like most everyone does the cupramine step in the QT...so hopefully it's mild enough to not cause any crazy problems and she'll get over the initial stress. Then I just have to sort out what the heck these black dots are, if anything, and how to treat it.

 

[Sabellafella]

Id look to see if its the actual skin and not raised. I cant even tell you the hundreds of times i went crazy over black marks, white patches on 1 side on the belly and it would up not being anything

Hi all. I've searched through the forum and found a bunch of threads on similar topics but I have compounding issues and would appreciate some advice.

I've had a blonde naso in QT for 21 days. I've done two rounds of Prazipro and she's eating Nori like a champ. She also loves brine shrimp. Since I've gotten her she has put on a ton of weight after coming in really skinny.

I posted about this fish a few weeks ago actually - and since then I've had no issues.

I've been debating whether or not to do curpramine up to this point since I hadn't noticed a single issue (I know..I know..)

Anyway.

Tonight I went in with a to take a peak and man - for the first time I noticed a ton of spots. In the black light they were whitish and I saw a few on the fins. SO, oh well - I drop in the first does of curpramine.

I took a closer look with a flashlight and realized I messed up - the spots are all black. They're mostly around the front half. Here's a photo: (the liverock was removed immediately after....tainted and in a bucket now...forever)

So - I'm not sure what it is or what to do. Over the past three weeks she's shown a lot of various color combinations but this doesn't seem like pigment. It's not ick...so black ick? Wouldn't the prazipro deal with that?

One other thread with a sick naso with similar spots mentioned bacteria infection? If I need to treat with other meds, do I need to do a 100% water change to get the curpramine out?

Any help is greatly appreciated. She was doing so well, this is going to be a gut punch.

 

[melypr1985]

Hi there! I'm so sorry to hear about your tang. See if you can get us a better, clear picture of the fish. I'm betting on black ich, though it does suck that you've already done prazi and it didn't take care of it. My first action would be to run prazi again. A formalin bath is also an option. Let's see a closer, clear picture first though.

 

[bevo5]

Thanks for the replies. I will try to get a better photo. I was just watching her on the web cam and she's eating from the nori clip and swimming so I guess she isn't too stressed from the copper.

If I have to do prazipro again do I need to remove all of the cupramine? Copper is at .25 from the first dose.

 

[Humblefish]

See if you can get us a better, clear picture of the fish.

^^This is what we really need to make a more accurate diagnosis. As @Triggreef pointed out, nasos are known for sometimes showing odd coloration and stress spots. And unless you've encountered a prazi resistant strain, Prazipro should have taken care of any turbellarians.

One way to know for sure is to administer a FW dip (see below). This will force some of the turbellarians to dislodge from the fish and those black spots will disappear. FYI; You can safely mix Prazipro with copper. But you might need to do a formalin bath if this is indeed black ich and two rounds of prazi didn't eradicate it.


Freshwater Dip: Provides temporary relief for Brooklynella, Flukes, Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly even Ich & Uronema marinum (both unproven). Can be used to confirm the presence of Flukes.

How To Treat - Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt a little tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.

Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also, tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes. Multiple dips may be done, but it’s important to give your fish a day to recuperate in-between dips.

For flukes, use a dark (preferably black) bucket so you can see if tiny white worms fall out of the fish (especially out of the gills) at around the 3-4 minute mark. The worms will settle to the bottom, so you can use a flashlight to look for them there as well.

Pros - Provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases in a chemical free environment. Can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.

Cons/Side Effects - Not a permanent “fix” for any disease, as FW dips are not potent enough to eradicate all of the parasites/worms afflicting the fish. Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal”.

 

[bevo5]

Got it. I'm waiting for lights on and then I'm going to do some better photography.

I did however just realize I did another bone headed move. I left a packet of purigen tucked away in a corner of the tank. It's old and has been in there for a few months. But I bet that didn't help the prazipro stay concentrated.

Ill get the better photo soon. Thank y'all for the help.

 

[Lynn52]

It doesn't really look like the black ich I just treated my yellow tang for. The two rounds of prazipro should have killed it. This is what mine looked like.

 

[Humblefish]

I left a packet of purigen tucked away in a corner of the tank.

Very likely this nullified your 2x Prazipro treatment and is now also absorbing copper out of the water.

 

[bevo5]

Yeah. I'm an idiot. I just forgot I had placed it in there way back....has to be the reason I *might* still have the worms. I don't think I've found a super worm!

Ok - I got a few more pics. She's not too keen on being photographed...and I'm embarrassed by the mess in the QT tank but I got rid of all the CUC. Anyway. I'm pretty certain it's not pigment as they're all new from yesterday....and very visible black dots covering her body.

The large blotch on this one is Nori....she ripped into a sheet with vigor this morning and housed it. So still eating!

So if this is black spot - should I do a big water change and restart prazipro or should I just leave it be with that low level of copper and go with another prazipro dose? I don't even think .25 (which is probably less this morning) is enough to kill ick right? Now that I've started the cupramine I could also just continue it alongside Prazipro if you guys think that's ok. Thank you for the help...

 

[bevo5]

I'm going to keep trying to get clearer photos!

 

[bevo5]

So after watching her all day I'm not seeing any white spots. Black spots are still there. They maybe have a bit of a white center. Either way.

Tank was a mess so I went ahead and did a 20% change.

At this point I have to believe it's worms and the purigen removed the prazipro. I'm going to go ahead and repeat the dosing schedule and then worry about the cupramine at the end of it unless obvious Ick appears.

My last prazipro was last Thursday, with the purigen still in. Should I run carbon or go ahead and drop the next dose in now to get going?

 

[melypr1985]

So after watching her all day I'm not seeing any white spots. Black spots are still there. They maybe have a bit of a white center. Either way.

Tank was a mess so I went ahead and did a 20% change.

At this point I have to believe it's worms and the purigen removed the prazipro. I'm going to go ahead and repeat the dosing schedule and then worry about the cupramine at the end of it unless obvious Ick appears.

My last prazipro was last Thursday, with the purigen still in. Should I run carbon or go ahead and drop the next dose in now to get going?

Did you do the freshwater dip? I think humble made a good point with that. Instead of jumping headfirst into the prazi (like I suggested) the freshwater dip will confirm Black ich for you. I just did this on a very large sailfin tang at the store. You'll see a noticeable difference after the dip and know exactly what to do. It wont hurt at all to do it and will provide some immediate relief for him. Better safe than sorry, so I suggest the dip first, then medicate with prazi if it confirms black ich.

 

[bevo5]

Oh man ok. I've never done a fw dip and it seems like it would be super stressful for the fish. But you're right that it makes sense to see what happens. She's still eating but does seem a bit more annoyed. More flinching around etc. so maybe it's starting to bother her.

I'll do a dip now. Got ro water coming up to temp as we speak.

Thanks.

 

[Humblefish]

Follow my instructions precisely (above) and you won't have any problems. Good luck.

 

[bevo5]

Yup. Thank you. I used a tiny bit of baking soda so it's the same as the tank. Tons of tiny black dots on her so hopefully this helps. Be right back with some results!

 

[bevo5]

OK....I hate this. Diagnosing, and curing, issues is just the worst part of this hobby. At least with dogs and cats you bring them to vets who know what to do. Here it's just me, with you all as very helpful guides, and this fish that came from the ocean a few weeks ago. I'm sure she looks out at me and thinks 'oh great...'

Anyway.

She tolerated the FW dip well enough. For sure was freaked out but did about 4:30 and then I put her back - she started to list a bit. Now she's pacing the tank and breathing pretty heavily but I'll keep an eye on her.

As far as the worms - a bit of junk got picked up in the net when I caught her so it's basically impossible for me to tell what's what in there. I ***THINK**** there are fewer noticeable dots, but there are still for sure a decent amount left. Would ALL of them had fallen off? I do think there are fewer on her now then there were before.

Should I just do prazipro in the morning? She tolerated it well enough the first couple times (Granted most of it was probably sucked out from the purigen). She ate throughout it all etc.

 

[bevo5]

For reference - here's the same fish three weeks ago. Very skinny, but no signs of the black dots. Shadows kind of make it seem like it - but none that I noticed. This was third day in QT....much fatter now.

 

[Humblefish]

If you notice less black dots (the FW dip won't make them all drop off), go ahead and do another round of Prazipro in the morning. Maybe do a WC beforehand to remove some of the copper (not necessary though).

If after 72 hrs in prazi you are still seeing the black dots, Houston we have a problem. That means you have encountered a prazi resistant strain of turbellarians (necessitating a formalin bath), or it's something else entirely (like the onset of a bacterial infection.) There's nothing I hate more than a secondary bacterial infection.