Cryptic Zonal System

[davidm777]

Hello all,

I am new to the reef keeping scene. I am in the process of designing the sump area for a 120g. After reading Salem's article on DOC (Disolved Organic Carbon), I been interested on the idea of a cryptic refugium.
I was recommended Steve Tyree's book "The Cryptic Zonal Systems". The book is no longer available on Steve's page. Any idea where I can get the book? Or any information on this subject. I find threads of people asking about information on R2R but no solid long articles or book recommendations other than this book.
On my search I found an interview with Steve Tyree on the R2R Youtube channel. I had no idea this channel even existed. I share the video here, in case you're interested. Please send leads on the subject my way. I am looking for more than the Reef Bum 10min video or Tang's from Tidal Gardens 6min video on the subject. Thank you.

 

[VintageReefer]

I run a cryptic zone in my sump
I feel sponge is a key part of my tanks success

With cabinet doors shut

And in the sump, in all 3 chambers, is established live rock covered in blue, purple, and yellow sponge, mini dusters, pods. There are no snails or crabs or predators for the micro critters. The middle chamber also has a 3” sandbed

And in my display I have a blue rope sponge colony and a softball size colony of yellow sponge

 

[Subsea]

I also run cryptic refugiums, now for 5 years. I have been Reefing for > 50 years. There is nothing pretty so I have not included pictures.

@davidm777
As an entry level reefer, what do you wish to know about cryptic sponges. @Timfish is my go to person on the subject.

Cryptic Zone for Sponges in the Sump/Refugium

My tank is relatively new but I have sponges growing in my protein skimmer, overflow box, and sump bottom (pineapple and chickenliver sponge). I have found they only grow where their is good flow and low light so want to make a place that is specifically for them so I can eventually clean the...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Subsea]

See if this helps. With respect to your video attached, I heard little info concerning cryptic loops or more importantly cryptic sponges and how they process DOC.​

​

DOC from coral is mostly lipuids & proteins while DOC from algae is mostly carbohydrates.​

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besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

​

Summary​

1. Corals and macroalgae release large quantities of dissolved organic matter (DOM), one of the largest sources of organic matter produced on coral reefs. By rapidly taking up DOM and transforming it into particulate detritus, coral reef sponges are proposed to play a key role in transferring the energy and nutrients in DOM to higher trophic levels via the recently discovered sponge loop. DOM released by corals and algae differs in quality and composition, but the influence of these different DOM sources on recycling by the sponge loop has not been investigated.
2. Here, we used stable isotope pulse-chase experiments to compare the processing of naturally sourced coral- and algal-derived DOM by three Red Sea coral reef sponge species: Chondrilla sacciformis, Hemimycale arabica and Mycale fistulifera. Incubation experiments were conducted to trace 13C- and 15N-enriched coral- and algal-derived DOM into the sponge tissue and detritus. Incorporation of 13C into specific phospholipid-derived fatty acids (PLFAs) was used to differentiate DOM assimilation within the sponge holobiont (i.e. the sponge host vs. its associated bacteria).
3. All sponges assimilated both coral- and algal-derived DOM, but incorporation rates were significantly higher for algal-derived DOM. The two DOM sources were also processed differently by the sponge holobiont. Algal-derived DOM was incorporated into bacteria-specific PLFAs at a higher rate while coral-derived DOM was more readily incorporated into sponge-specific PLFAs. A substantial fraction of the dissolved organic carbon (C) and nitrogen (N) assimilated by the sponges was subsequently converted into and released as particulate detritus (15–24% C and 27–49% N). However, algal-derived DOM was released as detritus at a higher rate.
4. The higher uptake and transformation rates of algal- compared with coral-derived DOM suggest that reef community phase shifts from coral to algal dominance may stimulate DOM cycling through the sponge loop with potential consequences for coral reef biogeochemical cycles and food webs.

 

[Timfish]

Hello all,

I am new to the reef keeping scene. I am in the process of designing the sump area for a 120g. After reading Salem's article on DOC (Disolved Organic Carbon), I been interested on the idea of a cryptic refugium. , , ,

Welcome to the addic hobby! Fortunately for us cryptic sponges are ubuquitus and will be found in any mature reef system. Using wild or maricultured live rock is the best way to introduce them and other microbial stuff that's essential and can't be stuck in a bottle. Wild or maricultured live rock also can help spead up the "uglies", see Aquabiomics ' article. Cryptic sponges will colonize any dark areas behind rocks and sides of tanks/sump/refugiums. If you use a very sparse aquascaping I would add some rock to an unlit sump or refugium. Keep in mind sponges grow to the extent they choose to grow. As pointed out in the link Subsea posted they will shed a lot of detritus. This is celualr detritusand what surprised everyone was when it was descovered thier mitosis rate can be as fast as 8 hours. If you don't remeberyou highschool biology (I can't blame you ) with that fast a growth rate they should be able to double in size in hours, not days. One of the things we still have to unravel is what mechanisms or conditions or variable determine wether they grow or wether they shed off lots of nutrient rich cellular detritus

 

[davidm777]

Hello all,
Thank you for your comments, replies.
@VintageReefer
I appreciate the pictures. I find the cryptic zones to be interesting, I feel I will be checking that area every now and then with a flashlight.
@Subsea
First thank you for the light you shead in the subject and giving direction to my own research.
(I just included the video since is the only thing I found online form the Man, the Myth, the Legend Steven Tyree. I had no clue R2R had a YouTube channel.... but other than that, yes, is unrelated).
You asked what questions do I have... well I have tons, but I feel I need to undertand better what are the sponges, I know in reefing everything is relative to the system and is best to undertand the processes than to follow a recipe . But some of the questions I have are:
What kind of flow does a cryptic zone needs, can I have it on the sump or do I need a seperate chaimber? - I intent to have flow of 3-5x, not 10x.
What quantity ratio is recomended in reference to the display tank?
What is needed to succesfully maintain the sponges?
Also and most importantly: What is the catch?
@Timfish
Thanks for the welcoming, you had it right the first time. This is kind of an obsession hahaha. I will check the Aquabiomics article. I have not yet have had the chance, thanks for swinging by! I am happy to see this forum is very much alive!

 

[Subsea]

@davidm777
While Steve Tyree focused on cryptic zone, I focus on cryptic sponges and they flourish in many areas without light. So, an unlit sump can function as a cryptic zone. I converted a mud & macro algae refugium into a cryptic refugium by removing the macro algae and adding live rock. I also converted a Jaubert Plenum into a reverse flow undergravel filter which is another cryptic zone. I did the same with canister filters.

I can’t help you with what size cryptic zone for your display. There are tooo many variables. Also, not sure what you mean by “What is the catch”.

@Timfish
Would you post the Rowler lecture video at USC. I think it would help this discussion as we get more technical.

 

[VintageReefer]

@davidm777
While Steve Tyree focused on cryptic zone, I focus on cryptic sponges and they flourish in many areas without light. So, an unlit sump can function as a cryptic zone. I converted a mud & macro algae refugium into a cryptic refugium by removing the macro algae and adding live rock. I also converted a Jaubert Plenum into a reverse flow undergravel filter which is another cryptic zone. I did the same with canister filters.

I can’t help you with what size cryptic zone for your display. There are tooo many variables. Also, not sure what you mean by “What is the catch”.

The cryptic zone will naturally develop and grow into what it needs to be. I use the fuge area of my trigger Ruby 30s sump

While I do keep sponge in my display, when it gets too large i relocate it to the sump to further seed the cryptic zone.

 

[VintageReefer]

@Subsea quoted you intentionally here, to notify, I quoted you unintentionally in the prior post whoooops

 

[Subsea]

I run a cryptic zone in my sump
I feel sponge is a key part of my tanks success

With cabinet doors shut

And in the sump, in all 3 chambers, is established live rock covered in blue, purple, and yellow sponge, mini dusters, pods. There are no snails or crabs or predators for the micro critters. The middle chamber also has a 3” sandbed

And in my display I have a blue rope sponge colony and a softball size colony of yellow sponge

Outstanding pictures. More importantly, magnificent colored sponges. Looks more like a kaleidoscope of colors.

Have you considered selling any?

 

[VintageReefer]

Outstanding pictures. More importantly, magnificent colored sponges. Looks more like a kaleidoscope of colors.

Have you considered selling any?

I have sold the blue rope sponge on the forum once to help out a sponge collector /sponge tank build. It’s easy to frag and ship

Thread has some interesting convo on sponges

Sponge Dominant Mixed Reef

I do not run a skimmer nor do I perform water changes. I don’t use filter roller, socks, or any mech filtration. My only filtration is my live rock, algae turf scrubber, and a cryptic zone in my sump with various whitish or yellow “mound sponges” , 3@ sandbed, various worms. I have a chemi pure...

www.reef2reef.com

That “rope sponge” just grew out of nowhere one day in my tank. Straight up like a stalk. Look left of the orange zoanthid. Started as a nub and just takes off vertically. Pic from several years ago, oldest I have on this phone

 

[VintageReefer]

@Subsea just for you I went to the sump and took some pics

In the display, I have this sponge colony. It’s a light tan color in person. It’s approx 5” across and growing these finger like appendages

And the earlier mentioned “blue rope sponge” which is the best ID I could get. As it gets tall it buckled over and attaches to things, then forms new branches. Every few months it attaches to something like a frag shelf or rock, I just peel it off, break the excess growth off, and put in the sump. Interesting, in the cryptic zone it is more of an encruster

 

[Timfish]

. . . What is the catch? . . .

The catch is we can't really test for anything we're talking about here. :/ If you read through the research on DOC and corals and algae and sponges there's species specific details everywhere. (and likely genotype specific variables.) Super complex stuff and there's lots of misinformation. All the hype about carbon dosing which is labile DOC being a good example when all the research shows it's bad for corals.

 

[VintageReefer]

Another catch…it’s difficult to get enough to make an impact, and we don’t know how much you need to make an impact?

 

[carri10]

Great thread. I'm am also attempting to get a 'sponge zone' going. More accurately, an area with a lot of rock, and no macro animals/plants that I leave alone to do it's thing. I hope that it will mature into a sponge zone.

One question I have...how cryptic (dark) does it need to be. Is it simply it must be dark enough that there is no overgrowth by macroalgae, or does it need to be dark, as light actually inhibits the organisms we want to encourage?

Thanks all.

 

[Shooter6]

I also have a cryptic zone.

Mine is a rectangular trash can with a tote shoved inside. The tote have a bunch of holes drilled throughout the bottom of it, and has layers of egg crate diffuser stacked in it. The garbage can is full of liverock, with large holes in the bottom parameter of the can.

My 2 inch overflow pipes output is into the tote, the can sits inside a Rubbermaid 300g container that is 2/3 full. Besides this I only run a skimmer for my sps dominant reef.

 

[VintageReefer]

Great thread. I'm am also attempting to get a 'sponge zone' going. More accurately, an area with a lot of rock, and no macro animals/plants that I leave alone to do it's thing. I hope that it will mature into a sponge zone.

One question I have...how cryptic (dark) does it need to be. Is it simply it must be dark enough that there is no overgrowth by macroalgae, or does it need to be dark, as light actually inhibits the organisms we want to encourage?

Thanks all.

I would say dark enough to not cause any algae growth. My cabinet doors do let some ambient light in dimly during the day time, it doesn’t seem to affect anything negatively.

Anyone out there more knowledgeable - feel free to correct me. I’m not entirely sure of the answer, I know many sponges prefer darkness - but how dark is needed, I’m unsure of.

 

[Subsea]

@Subsea just for you I went to the sump and took some pics

In the display, I have this sponge colony. It’s a light tan color in person. It’s approx 5” across and growing these finger like appendages

And the earlier mentioned “blue rope sponge” which is the best ID I could get. As it gets tall it buckled over and attaches to things, then forms new branches. Every few months it attaches to something like a frag shelf or rock, I just peel it off, break the excess growth off, and put in the sump. Interesting, in the cryptic zone it is more of an encruster

Love the blue rope sponge. Not just the color, but the fact that it thrives in light as well as in reduced light /cryptic zone.

Vintage,
I think you are correct in that as long as algae doesn’t clog up sponge feeding mechanisms. In the case of ornamental yellow ball sponges, I brush off algae with a toothbrush, when the herbivores miss a spot.

The fact that sponges can live on phytoplankton at times, then DOC, then bacteria, fungi & parasites convinces me that multi feeding strategies allow sponges to thrive under differrent environmental conditions.

When I first converted to cryptic refugium, cryptic sponges were my focus. Now, as I research further, I find sponges in a pivitol role for the microbial loop. Considering that sponges consume both DOC & POC in the form of microbes that comprise the microbial loop
AND sponges contribute carbon rich detritus to feed the microbial loop. In engineering, this would be a perpetual motion loop, because sponges feed the microbial loop and they consume microbes from the loop.

PS: I consider sponges to be the third leg of the Coral holibiont on the reef: bacteria, algae & sponges.

 

[dank.reefer]

I have also been kicking the idea of a cryptic fuge around for my next build. The main questions that I have not seen answered here are weather they are plumbed off the main drain or are people feeding them with a loop from the return pump? Then the other question is wether or not anyone is running a cryptic zone along with a macro refugium or is this just a redundant overkill?

 

[davidm777]

See if this helps. With respect to your video attached, I heard little info concerning cryptic loops or more importantly cryptic sponges and how they process DOC.​

​

DOC from coral is mostly lipuids & proteins while DOC from algae is mostly carbohydrates.​

Error - Cookies Turned Off

besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

​

Summary​

1. Corals and macroalgae release large quantities of dissolved organic matter (DOM), one of the largest sources of organic matter produced on coral reefs. By rapidly taking up DOM and transforming it into particulate detritus, coral reef sponges are proposed to play a key role in transferring the energy and nutrients in DOM to higher trophic levels via the recently discovered sponge loop. DOM released by corals and algae differs in quality and composition, but the influence of these different DOM sources on recycling by the sponge loop has not been investigated.
2. Here, we used stable isotope pulse-chase experiments to compare the processing of naturally sourced coral- and algal-derived DOM by three Red Sea coral reef sponge species: Chondrilla sacciformis, Hemimycale arabica and Mycale fistulifera. Incubation experiments were conducted to trace 13C- and 15N-enriched coral- and algal-derived DOM into the sponge tissue and detritus. Incorporation of 13C into specific phospholipid-derived fatty acids (PLFAs) was used to differentiate DOM assimilation within the sponge holobiont (i.e. the sponge host vs. its associated bacteria).
3. All sponges assimilated both coral- and algal-derived DOM, but incorporation rates were significantly higher for algal-derived DOM. The two DOM sources were also processed differently by the sponge holobiont. Algal-derived DOM was incorporated into bacteria-specific PLFAs at a higher rate while coral-derived DOM was more readily incorporated into sponge-specific PLFAs. A substantial fraction of the dissolved organic carbon (C) and nitrogen (N) assimilated by the sponges was subsequently converted into and released as particulate detritus (15–24% C and 27–49% N). However, algal-derived DOM was released as detritus at a higher rate.
4. The higher uptake and transformation rates of algal- compared with coral-derived DOM suggest that reef community phase shifts from coral to algal dominance may stimulate DOM cycling through the sponge loop with potential consequences for coral reef biogeochemical cycles and food webs.

Very cool paper! The scientists on the paper ran 3x on their flow, if I use this as a rough guide running the cryptic zone, just placing the rocks on the sump might not be the best idea (thinking there was a reason for running the experiment at that flow rate).
I also read that they get the Disolved Organic Matter including Carbon and Nitrogen and poop out detritus (may be tons of it). I guess one consideration is to set them up with maintenance in mind.