Crypto wins the gamble- QT Journal

[LuckyPhil]

Nooooooooo! When I saw your thread appear at the top of the forum I was praying for it not to be a Crypto post....
It's happened to you and the other guy with the thread on 500g tank..
My fallow period ends in 6 days and i'm worried
I used TTM instead of copper like you did.

I plan to not add any fish or livestock (going to be hard) for at least 3-4 months to ensure I know that I have wiped out Crypto.
I hope its not Crypto for you but the fact that the spots have already dropped in one day and reappeared in different areas already is a concern (velvet?)

 

[Humblefish]

Or she could Prazi the tank if she can't or doesn't want to catch the fish in the display. I've used it without any issues. It says on the bottle it can be used as a preventive for future outbreaks.

Using prazi in a DT is not without risk. It would be better to confirm flukes before taking that action.

 

[ngoodermuth]

^^ This, or FW dip that tang to check for flukes.

I'll do that and see what I find.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Nooooooooo! When I saw your thread appear at the top of the forum I was praying for it not to be a Crypto post....
It's happened to you and the other guy with the thread on 500g tank..
My fallow period ends in 6 days and i'm worried
I used TTM instead of copper like you did.

I plan to not add any fish or livestock (going to be hard) for at least 3-4 months to ensure I know that I have wiped out Crypto.
I hope its not Crypto for you but the fact that the spots have already dropped in one day and reappeared in different areas already is a concern (velvet?)

It doesn't hurt to give it a couple extra days for good measure, but my current fish came back from QT just fine, no issues until the new fish were added :/

Unfortunately, even waiting 3-4 month if somehow your fish are immune, but not cured, the parasites will likely show up with the new fish. I'm wishing I would have tried a few black mollies as test fish before moving everyone back...

 

[Humblefish]

I'll do that and see what I find.

You could introduce a few black mollies, wait for symptoms to manifest and then FW dip them to check for flukes. Mollies should be easier to catch than your PBT (just keep them in the sump or acclimation box.)

The downside is you could be losing precious time waiting for the mollies to show symptoms, especially if this turns out to be velvet.

 

[ngoodermuth]

You could introduce a few black mollies, wait for symptoms to manifest and then FW dip them to check for flukes. Mollies should be easier to catch than your PBT (just keep them in the sump or acclimation box.)

The downside is you could be losing precious time waiting for the mollies to show symptoms, especially if this turns out to be velvet.

I'm really not sure how it could be velvet. With the shorter life cycle, it should have been long gone by the end of 30 days of copper. But, I guess if I somehow cross-contaminated between the DT and the new fish in QT it's possible.

And, the existing fish would likely have signs of velvet as well if that was the case? I mean, they were only immune to whatever they were exposed to originally...not whatever would have came in with the new fish? And this looks much more like what I assumed was crypto originally.

I'll try trapping one of the fish for a fw dip and go from there.

 

[Humblefish]

My gut tells me this is flukes. However, I would like to see some dead ones in FW to confirm that suspicion.

 

[code4]

@ngoodermuth I wouldn't do anything just yet. Count the days... an ich trophont must remain on a fish for 3-7 days before dropping off. If it moves on the fish or is gone in less than 3 days, it cannot be ich. Also, if you look closely you should see that the excess mucous (white spot) is just under the outer skin layer, not on top of it.

I am just curious how you count the days. When you say 3 days do you mean anytime during the 3 days or at least 72 hours. I know, picky, but I really am needing to know.

Thanks,
Shelley

 

[Empress]

I'm thinking 72 hours since anything under that wouldn't be 3 days. My guess. Wait for Humble.

And I have a picky question too: when you say that the mucous is just under the outer layer, not on top of it: does that mean the parasite is still there or isn't?

 

[Humblefish]

I am just curious how you count the days. When you say 3 days do you mean anytime during the 3 days or at least 72 hours. I know, picky, but I really am needing to know.

It's a little tricky, because there is a delayed reaction from when the theront first burrows in to when the trophont forms (i.e. visible white dot). And the white dot is actually the fish's immune response to the trophont - excess mucous builds up around the insertion point. Most literature suggests it takes around 12 hours for white dots to show after a trophont embeds. However, keep in mind that white spots may not be obvious in light coloured fish or those with gill infestations.

Once a trophont latches on, it will remain on the fish for at least 3 days, but for no longer than 7 days. Any white dots which come & go in less than 3 days are probably velvet (some strains drop off in as little as 12 hours); any white dots visible for >8 days (allowing an extra day for the excess mucous to build up and then subside) are probably Lymphocystis nodules or possibly a bacterial disease.

Of course, for the above to be accurate you must observe your fish for white dots each & every day. Also, keep track of exactly where the white dots are because trophonts can be coming & going (the life cycle of ich is usually asynchronous.)

 

[Humblefish]

And I have a picky question too: when you say that the mucous is just under the outer layer, not on top of it: does that mean the parasite is still there or isn't?

Yes, the parasite is still present. The white mucous is just the fish's immune response to the presence of the trophont. Parasites (in all life stages) are invisible to the naked eye. The white dot you are seeing is, in fact, the excess mucous. Most worms (flukes, turbellarians) are large enough to be seen, however.

 

[Empress]

This mucous you're talking about; is that a "pimple-like bump" (that's just under the skin)? I'm just trying to get a visual.

Thanks for being so patient with all these questions we keep throwing at you! It's a good thing you don't charge! I'd be broke by now! [emoji245]

 

[Brew12]

This mucous you're talking about; is that a "pimple-like bump" (that's just under the skin)? I'm just trying to get a visual.

Thanks for being so patient with all these questions we keep throwing at you! It's a good thing you don't charge! I'd be broke by now! [emoji245]

There can be a pimple like bump associated with it but the mucus is external to the fish.

That doesn't mean that a pimple like bump can't be the parasite. If the mucus cannot be excreted out of the location, or was rubbed off, it may only look like a raised spot.

 

[Empress]

That's weird. I've had velvet with ich a little over a year ago but never noticed any mucus. That's something I'll keep an eye out for; probably for the rest of my life or until I tear the tank down; whichever comes first. [emoji12]

 

[code4]

ngoodermuth did you manage to trap one and do a fresh water dip? If so what did you find? I think I will be trying the black molly idea to be sure. I do not mind keeping a molly in my tank full time if all is well. ;Happy I have learned a lot from your thread as I know was your intent, to help others.

Wishing you the best,
Shelley

 

[ngoodermuth]

It's definitely ich, it's gotten a bit worse over the week. I'll be getting everyone over to QT hopefully this weekend [emoji30]

 

[code4]

It's definitely ich, it's gotten a bit worse over the week. I'll be getting everyone over to QT hopefully this weekend [emoji30]

I am so sorry for all your fish. I hope you have a observation tank which is cycled for after you get rid of the ich. Wish I lived close to you. I would come over and help you. ;Nurse

Shelley

 

[LuckyPhil]

Oh no! Are you going to use copper again?

How long after you reintroduced your fish did you start noticing crypto again?

 

[ngoodermuth]

Oh no! Are you going to use copper again?

How long after you reintroduced your fish did you start noticing crypto again?

Yep, I'm going to stick with the cupramine because it did work. I must have re-infected my display somehow, because they were all fine in QT even after I pulled the copper. It wasn't until I added the new fish (also QT'd) a couple of weeks later (stressor event) that the symptoms returned. It's really frustrating, probably a matter of something silly like a water jug or feeding utensil that I used between tanks accidentally.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Just a quick update, nothing too exciting. Still fishing...it's been a bit slow going but the symptoms have stayed pretty mild so I'm not really rushing. Only two fish left to catch, the yellow wrasse and the clarki.

The QT's have been split into two groups. The tangs, angel, tusk, and rhomboid are going in the 40g QT, The leopard, yellow, and Clarki are going into a 20g QT with a flame wrasse that's been in QT limbo. Going to medicate the entire group together and leave the display fallow for a long time...