Crypto wins the gamble- QT Journal

[Maritimer]

It also helps to shine a light (flashlight) directly on the sensor pad - from behind works well - to get a truer color reading.

(These color things can be _annoying_!)

~Bruce, who's had some ... interesting ... moments of his own lately in QT

 

[Humblefish]

It also helps to shine a light (flashlight) directly on the sensor pad - from behind works well - to get a truer color reading.

(These color things can be _annoying_!)

~Bruce, who's had some ... interesting ... moments of his own lately in QT

I've had good success reading the alert badge by shining a 10k Fluorescent Light Bulb (T12) directly overhead.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Ok experts, wwyd?

This is a video of the flame wrasse, you can see the breathing; but he looks ok:


Every now and then he will get like this and look like he's "panting". But, it's not all the time and he's still eating.


Before you think "ionic copper" off the bat; this breathing started before the copper, right after the move to QT. It just seems like it comes and goes. It was better for a while then flared-up again. Could it just be the stress/parasites bugging him, or is the general consensus still copper-sensitivity ? I really don't want to pull him unless it's absolutely necessary. None of the other fish seem affected.

 

[Humblefish]

I think copper sensitivity is the most likely explanation. How many days has it been at therapeutic levels? Also, have you already treated with Prazipro for flukes?

 

[ngoodermuth]

I think copper sensitivity is the most likely explanation. How many days has it been at therapeutic levels? Also, have you already treated with Prazipro for flukes?

6 days therapeutic, and yes all the fish have had 2 doses of prazi. He's also had a rally bath, and has been treated with metroplex prior to the current treatment. He should be a medication expert by now...or glowing [emoji15]

 

[Humblefish]

6 days therapeutic, and yes all the fish have had 2 doses of prazi. He's also had a rally bath, and has been treated with metroplex prior to the current treatment. He should be a medication expert by now...or glowing [emoji15]

If any of the fish are still looking "off" after 10 days in copper, transfer them to a non-medicated HT at least 10 feet away. 10 days of therapeutic strength (very important!) copper is all that is needed for ich & velvet if you have another QT to transfer the fish into.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Ok, I'll keep that in mind

 

[Areseebee]

If any of the fish are still looking "off" after 10 days in copper, transfer them to a non-medicated HT at least 10 feet away. 10 days of therapeutic strength (very important!) copper is all that is needed for ich & velvet if you have another QT to transfer the fish into.

Humble, could you explain why this would be different than the 12 day period of TTM? Or is the point that 12 is just being extremely safe and so 10 is, in a practical way, good of enough.

 

[CORALUST]

Nice post!

 

[Humblefish]

Humble, could you explain why this would be different than the 12 day period of TTM? Or is the point that 12 is just being extremely safe and so 10 is, in a practical way, good of enough.

TTM involves moving the fish every 72 hours, and is designed to "outrun" the front end of ich's known life cycle without the use of harsh chemicals (like copper.)

What I am proposing is this: Once you raise copper (or CP) to full therapeutic, you now have a shield in place which protects your fish from reinfection. Ich trophonts can only remain on a fish for a maximum of 7 days; velvet only lasts 4 days. After that, your QT may still be infected with tomonts but the fish itself should be clear. So why not transfer the fish away from those tomonts and into a disease-free environment? I've successfully tested this theory on 68 different fish with active infections.

Some hard rules:

• The 10 day clock doesn't begin until copper or CP has reached full therapeutic.
• It must remain full therapeutic for the entire 10 days. If it dips even slightly, the 10 day clock restarts once therapeutic has been reachieved.
• Copper is considered the most reliable method for this treatment protocol, because it can be and should be tested daily. Using a professional grade test kit is highly advised when employing this method.
• The fish must be transferred at least 10 feet away (aerosol transmission) and copper/CP cannot be lowered prior to transferring.
• NOTHING from the original treatment tank can be reused for the non-medicated holding tank. The original treatment tank must be considered contaminated with tomonts and should be broken down & sterilized.

In @ngoodermuth's case, she still needs the treatment tank for the rest of her fish so copper must remain at therapeutic to zap any theronts as they are emerging from their tomonts i.e. the shield remains in place. In theory, 8 days should suffice, but I felt tacking on an extra two days provided a safety net.

 

[Areseebee]

But isn't the clock, for both methods, the 7 day trophant phase? If someone doing ttm transferred after 10 days (obviously also every <72 hours) to a new tank how is that different? Copper prevents reattachment chemically and ttm prevents it by not allowing them to be there in the first place.

Edit: also wouldn't it be better to transfer all the fish out now to a clean (of copper and tomants) tank?

 

[Humblefish]

But isn't the clock, for both methods, the 7 day trophant phase? If someone doing ttm transferred after 10 days (obviously also every <72 hours) to a new tank how is that different? Copper prevents reattachment chemically and ttm prevents it by not allowing them to be there in the first place.

TTM must account for the range (3-7 days) ich trophonts can remain on a fish. Worst case scenario (for TTM) is 3 days, so this is why the transfers are done every 72 hours. If you stick to the 72 hour transfer schedule, then the final transfer is not really needed, but again provides a safety net. I feel accounting for the possibility of human error is a sensible precaution.

This "new" transfer method I am describing uses the 7 days as worst case scenario instead. The downside is a chemical (copper or CP) must be used to protect the fish from reinfection, should some of the trophonts drop off sooner than 7 days. The upside to TTM is the fish are never exposed to any chemicals.

Edit: also wouldn't it be better to transfer all the fish out now to a clean (of copper and tomants) tank?

Yes, assuming she could fit all the fish into the holding tank. They will need to be housed there until the fallow period is up in the DT.

 

[Areseebee]

TTM must account for the range (3-7 days) ich trophonts can remain on a fish. Worst case scenario (for TTM) is 3 days, so this is why the transfers are done every 72 hours (or less.) The final transfer is not really needed, but again provides a safety net. I feel accounting for the possibility of human error is a sensible precaution.

This "new" transfer method I am describing uses the 7 days as worst case scenario instead. The downside is a chemical (copper or CP) must be used to protect the fish from reinfection, should some of the trophonts drop off sooner than 7 days. The upside to TTM is the fish are never exposed to any chemicals.



Yes, assuming she could fit all the fish into the holding tank. They will need to be housed there until the fallow period is up in the DT.

Awesome, that's what I thought. In the end it's the same 7 day window you are accounting for, ttm just has one extra "safety net" transfer. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Ok, new day - new problems. I finished the kanaplex, and administered the last dose of metro on Saturday. Did a 15g water change yesterday as the alert badge was reading .05 again.

The first day without antibiotics, yesterday, the flame wrasse started to get these white marks again. He had them in the DT, I had assumed were related to ammonia after his first QT ammonia-spike incident (see my other thread for reference) The white marks had stayed while he was in the display, and disappeared after his rally bath and have been gone until now. They are very, very faint - hard to get on camera. They are still there today.

Also, the reason I was treating with kanaplex originally was that both the fairy wrasses had a couple marks on their fins. Today, the rhomboid has a HUGE chunk out of it's tail. I mean, it looks bad.

My kole tang could be to blame...he chases everyone else in the tank. But none of the other fish have ever had nips or injuries - just the rhomboid. This is the third time, and definitely the worst.

So my questions...could both of these things - the white marks on the flame and the rhomboid's tail- possibly be some sort of stubborn bacterial infection? It's just weird that they both came back right after the antibiotics stopped and had been present on both fish previously. I was starting to think maybe brook with the white marks on the flame, but they have had a rally bath and full treatment of metroplex so that's not likely.

It could also just be nipping/ammonia. But, the ammonia has not been over .05 (I've been watching like a hawk) and I haven't observed the tang picking on the rhomboid more than any other fish and none of the others have been nipped.

I'm on the fence about starting another round of antibiotics. Maybe furan-2?

What do you think? @Humblefish @melypr1985 @4FordFamily

I'll try to get some pictures, but the marks on the flame don't show well on camera. It's almost like the scales are turning white/hazy.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Here's the best I could get. You can obviously see the tail, and if you look close near the flame's tail you can see a couple white scales. It's like that all over his body but you can only see it on camera when the light hits it right.

Oh, and the flame wrasse's breathing has been normal since the antibiotics were done which is the biggest reason I'm hesitant to start them again.

 

[4FordFamily]

Here's the best I could get. You can obviously see the tail, and if you look close near the flame's tail you can see a couple white scales. It's like that all over his body but you can only see it on camera when the light hits it right.

Oh, and the flame wrasse's breathing has been normal since the antibiotics were done which is the biggest reason I'm hesitant to start them again.

It does look like an infection to me, but this isn't my expertise at all. The tail damage on the rhomboid isn't fatal but the aggression could become much worse as his condition fades, but I assume you know that already.

I'm sorry I'm not more help, this is above my personal expertise...

 

[Humblefish]

@ngoodermuth This does appear to be a stubborn infection. How many fish are showing signs? Just the two wrasses? If so, I'd transfer them to a separate QT (after 10 days in copper) and hit them with this combo for 10 consecutive days: Kanaplex + Metroplex + Furan-2.

With an acriflavine bath en route to QT#2: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/acriflavine.282887/

 

[Humblefish]

Here is another wide spectrum option to consider: http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/NFP-products-Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html

I would just hate to see you dump all those meds on everybody, if only the 2 wrasses are showing symptoms. The other fish are probably fighting the infection off via their natural immune system.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Edit. I'm too slow in posting [emoji12]

 

[ngoodermuth]

Yes, the two fairy wrasses are the only ones with symptoms. Although, now that I think about it the yellow wrasse might be symptomatic too. She's still scratching on PVC and has some very faint marks as well that I was attributing to the crypto.

@Humblefish If I decided to treat the entire group, would you still suggest a rally bath for the affected or would it be useless if I'm just putting them right back into the infected tank?

Also, which would be "easier" on them? The trifecta, or the NFP product you linked? The flame wrasse is weird about meds.