Crypto wins the gamble- QT Journal

ngoodermuth · May 25, 2017

Paging back-up @melypr1985 @4FordFamily

So, 14 days of the trifecta antibiotics is up. The flame wrasse and little clown look exactly the same, no better no worse. The methylene blue bath did nothing, so I'm doing a rally bath now on those two and the rhomboid. The rhomboid is the only one who seems to be pretty much back to normal. Tail is still healing but it looks MUCH better.

Now I'm trying to decide what's next? I did my normal 25% waterchange, should I dose the medicine again? Try plan 2 with neoplex or sulphaplex? Just wait a few days after the bath and see what happens?

ngoodermuth · May 25, 2017

Oh, to complicate things further I'm still at therapeutic copper as well for another couple of weeks (it dipped down once so I had to restart the clock). So, I can't fully remove the current meds to switch without a huge water change. Carbon would take out the copper also.

melypr1985 · May 25, 2017

Do you have updated pictures of the clown and flame? I think I would wait a few days and see what happens... then switch to the sulfa meds. They may need a break in between antibiotics as over-medicating can be just as dangerous and not medicating at all.

Maritimer · May 25, 2017

While I can't offer much in the way of confident guidance, I'm for sure listening carefully, and hoping for a successful outcome.

Bacteria is a ... well. You know.

~Bruce

ngoodermuth · May 25, 2017

I'll get some pictures tomorrow since they are in the rally now. But it's the same whitish-scales on the flame and white fuzzy goatee on the clown. The clowns growth got a bit bigger from the last photo but then seemed to kind of level off. I ALMOST wonder if the clown just has lympho...

ETA. Both still swimming and eating normally and otherwise look good.

melypr1985 · May 25, 2017

ngoodermuth said:
I'll get some pictures tomorrow since they are in the rally now. But it's the same whitish-scales on the flame and white fuzzy goatee on the clown. The clowns growth got a bit bigger from the last photo but then seemed to kind of level off. I ALMOST wonder if the clown just has lympho...

lympho is possible... just weird to see on a clown.

4FordFamily · May 26, 2017

This stuff isn't my expertise but I would wait a few days then switch meds as well, pending photos. I'm glad at least the rhomboid is improving!

ngoodermuth · May 26, 2017

Here is the clownfish:

Some of the fuzzy stuff came off in the bath, but you can see how it's kind of pink/sore where it's attached to his chin...I don't think I've ever seen lympho look like that :/

The scales on the flame wrasse are nearly impossible to pick up with my iPhone for some reason. If I can find the memory card for the camera I can try to get a clearer picture.

You can kind of see a few scales here on his body, near the dorsal fin. It's MUCH more pronounced in real life and scattered across his entire body.

melypr1985 · May 26, 2017

ngoodermuth said:
Some of the fuzzy stuff came off in the bath, but you can see how it's kind of pink/sore where it's attached to his chin...I don't think I've ever seen lympho look like that :/

I haven't either, and I'm certain that's not what it is. You may have to try the sulfa meds on this one, though it's weird that the others didn't help at all. Of course, if this next round of meds doesn't work, then you may have to just wait and see what it does.

ngoodermuth said:
You can kind of see a few scales here on his body, near the dorsal fin. It's MUCH more pronounced in real life and scattered across his entire body.

I almost see what you are talking about. Same with this guy... This is either bacterial or an actual defect in the scales.

ngoodermuth · May 26, 2017

melypr1985 said:
I almost see what you are talking about. Same with this guy... This is either bacterial or an actual defect in the scales.

I'm sure it's not a defect, it came on pretty suddenly originally...cleared up during the move to QT..and then came back after the first round of kanaplex. The first time it cleared up was after a rally bath during the transfer. But, the rally bath I gave him last night didn't help this time :/

I guess I will do another water change tomorrow and try the sulphaplex. I did 10 gallons yesterday, can probably pull off 20 gallons tomorrow. System is roughly 50 gallons. Will that be enough to dilute any residual meds without using carbon to remove them? Do I need to worry about any interactions with the sulphaplex?

melypr1985 · May 26, 2017

ngoodermuth said:
I'm sure it's not a defect, it came on pretty suddenly originally...cleared up during the move to QT..and then came back after the first round of kanaplex. The first time it cleared up was after a rally bath during the transfer. But, the rally bath I gave him last night didn't help this time :/

I guess I will do another water change tomorrow and try the sulphaplex. I did 10 gallons yesterday, can probably pull off 20 gallons tomorrow. System is roughly 50 gallons. Will that be enough to dilute any residual meds without using carbon to remove them? Do I need to worry about any interactions with the sulphaplex?

It should be ok. The other meds won't be active in the water at that point anyhow. Though one more water change after that 20 gallons wouldn't hurt anything.

ngoodermuth · May 30, 2017

Is it ok to feed metroplex/focus while treating with sulphaplex? Female clown has stringy poop [emoji31]

melypr1985 · May 30, 2017

ngoodermuth said:
Is it ok to feed metroplex/focus while treating with sulphaplex? Female clown has stringy poop [emoji31]

yes, it should be fine. Sorry about the continued issues

4FordFamily · May 30, 2017

melypr1985 said:
yes, it should be fine. Sorry about the continued issues

It seems like when it rains it pours. Unfortunately fish are absolutely bombarded by an array of disease before they reach our tanks now. It's absolutely horrible out there these days..

TonapahNorth · May 30, 2017

ngoodermuth said:
Copper level is around .35, still very slowly bringing it up. I've been adding between 2-3ml a day, in 1ml doses. It's taking a lot longer than I'd like .....

What exactly is therapeutic level? Most test kits I've seen only go to about .2 ppm

Katrina71 · May 30, 2017

ngoodermuth said:
Well, everyone is back to normal today after the bath, but it didn't really make a difference on the appearance of either fish. So, I'm going to just wait the next few days while I finish up the current antibiotics to re-evaluate and pick my next move. The thing on the clown's chin is still growing, it looks like a big white beard...

Please post a pic

Maritimer · May 30, 2017

TonapahNorth said:
What exactly is therapeutic level? Most test kits I've seen only go to about .2 ppm

Therapeutic varies, depending on what kind of copper you're using. For ionic copper such as Cuprimine, it's .35 to .5, but for chelated copper like CopperSafe, it's 1.5 to 2.0.

Handy write-up by HumbleFish: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-test-kits.257924/#post-3049560

~Bruce

ngoodermuth · May 30, 2017

TonapahNorth said:
What exactly is therapeutic level? Most test kits I've seen only go to about .2 ppm

I'm using cupramine (ionic copper), with the corresponding seachem test kit. Therapeutic level is .4-.5, with .5 being preferable.

Most people use coppersafe (chelated copper) with API test kit, the therapeutic level for chelated copper is .2. It's supposed to be easier on the fish, and can even work for fish thought to be "copper-intolerant"

The only reason I opted for cupramine was that I'm already familiar with it, and had it on hand. My LFS doesn't carry the chelated type.

ngoodermuth · May 30, 2017

Katrina71 said:
Please post a pic

Here is a picture of the clown before the last rally bath (don't mind the dirty glass):

A big part of it came off in the bath, and it actually looks a little better now although it's still there.

Here is the flame wrasse:

You can see some of the "white" scales near his dorsal fin. They look hazy/opaque and kind of ruffled in person. It doesn't photograph well with my iPhone, but it's scattered all over his body.

ngoodermuth · May 31, 2017

Did the 20g change yesterday (was too busy this weekend to get to it) and today the white on the flame wrasse is definitely worse. Also, the yellow wrasse has the same white, blotchy haze on her that she had before..very similar to the flame wrasse. It makes sense, since she was still scratching periodically even though the ich spots have been gone for several weeks now.

There was still a very yellow tint to the water, so I was planning to do one more big water change before going ahead with the sulphaplex. I'm going to pickup the pace and do that tonight, since it's obviously bacterial. Too much of a coincidence that the symptoms flare up every time the antibiotics are removed.

The canary wrasse's blotches are even worse than the flame to pickup on camera, though I did get this picture of the flame that shows the "haze" a little better.