Cryptocaryon and immunity

[Mortie31]

I have used pleated micron filters to filter out the free swimming stages of CI. Well, I have used them, and the infections went away over time. I only have anecdote to support this, but the reasoning checks out.
I used nu clear canisters with 25 micron pleated filters, as they get dirty they get more efficient and filter out smaller stuff, so fluffing the sand in the display flocs the filter. Since the free swimming stages are like 18 micron, over a month or two it stands to reason that the filter would be filtering out that size particle. The canister was run off a mag 8, and pulled water directly from, and returned to, the 200 gallon display in which CI was showing up, but catching the fish out would have needed the display to be broken down. This was in conjunction with our vet. CI popped upu twice more in the first month, very few dots, and then didn't show up anymore. This was 4 years ago.
If the fish are healthy and eating and difficult to catch out, this would be my first step.

Do you feel the new roller filters will work in a similar way? The roll has 25 micron holes that block up slowly filtering finer and finer, until the mechanism triggers to advance the roll... sounds like they will catch the free swimming stage CI to me..

 

[ca1ore]

What is everyone's favorite non anecdotal evidence for CI immunity in reef fishes?

What do you mean by non-anecdotal? Do you mean studies following proper scientific principles? I think most have been cited before.

 

[Thales]

Do you feel the new roller filters will work in a similar way? The roll has 25 micron holes that block up slowly filtering finer and finer, until the mechanism triggers to advance the roll... sounds like they will catch the free swimming stage CI to me..

That would worry me. When the roll moves to clean material, you wont be filtering small enough. Plus, I like the pleated filter having the power behind it to really have to push through the filter as opposed to the more passive nature of the roller filter.

But I do love some of the roller filters! I mean, I generally dislike filter socks and don't use them that often, but for applications that need the filtration, they are great.

 

[Thales]

What do you mean by non-anecdotal? Do you mean studies following proper scientific principles? I think most have been cited before.

I am interested in having them cited here for this discussion. Non anecdotal is anything more than "I think my fish are immune because I don't see any ich anymore'.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

With respect, this is simply not factually correct. Comparisons between our tank and the ocean are a stretch at best to begin with. However, fish in the ocean do succumb to parasites in both small and large scale dieoffs. While it is true that by some measures vast majority of fish in the ocean tend to be infected with parasites when caught for surveys. Many parasites, including ich and velvet, have relatively low acute mortality rates in the ocean. In most cases though the assumption is that a sick fish will succumb to predation. We don't know the impact on fish lifespan due to a chronic parasitic infection, but in aquaculture the impact of parasites is studied and deemed severe, even if a fish remains asymptomatic.

A few things (and I’m not disagreeing with your statements):

- Aquaculture is a totally different situation. Of course pathogens and parasites are major players...the environments are designed to pump out #s and have easy access to them, not keep the fish stress-free in a like-natural environment.

- re: infestation in the wild...we have to look at all factors involved, and what could be contributing to a greater frequency and greater infestation level within a population. Here’s an anecdote (emphasizing this is strictly an anecdote):

I grew up on a warm-water lake. Both through observation of fish in the lake and catching them fishing, you could generally get a good feel for the normal frequency/distribution of parasitic infestation. Typically kind of a standard bell-curve distribution...most fish extremely healthy to generally healthy. A smaller percentage that were having some issues but had a chance to pull through, and then a very small percentage that were shot and had no chance.

Those would be under what we would consider normal years. Avg temps, water levels, food amounts, etc. There will always be those within any given population that are more not very fit and are far more likely to succumb to parasitic infestations.

Every once in a while, there would be a year where something environmentally went sideways. For instance, one year there was a lot of heavy rain, and waste from a nearby pig farm was flowing heavily into the lake. This resulted in an algae bloom (and blooms of who knows what else). Anyway, the lake became hypoxic below 15’. This forced the fish into shallower water, and high temps added additional stress.

There was a lot of mortality that year, probably from numerous factors. But the evidence of parasitic infestation was way up. It seemed like almost every fish caught had something going on.

Of course that’s anecdotal, but I would bet that if I launched some research examining frequency and severity of parasitic infestation in the lake under various conditions, there would be a strong correlation between frequency/severity and environmental conditions.

 

[ca1ore]

My observations:

1. Comparing ich infestations in the ocean to our tanks is apples and oranges. Parasites like ich survive by producing large numbers of infectives because the enormous dilution in the ocean means the vast majority will not encounter a viable host before they expire. In the confines of a tank, that dilution effect is not present and infestations spiral out of control. That is why, in my opinion, devices like a DE filter or UV can help to even the odds.
2. There are an endless set of variables that define a particular ich infestation, including the specific strain. Why some tanks can be managed and other not may depend, in part, on the potency of the strain. This is conjecture on my part.
3. I run a known ich tank, but I also QT all new fish. Though it is possible a new ich strain was subsequently introduced, I do not believe this to be that case. So, the ich strain in my tank has been there since 2013. I know it is still there because sometimes a new fish will display transient symptoms. Usually tangs, but not always. Some of the fish in my tank have been exposed to this strain since 2013 and do not ever show symptoms; nor aberrant behaviors.

 

[EmdeReef]

I've never seen a study of reef fishes, but this is I guess the source study on immunity. Vaccine studies seem to confirm this broadly, i.e. there's been no successful attempt to produce a 100% effective vaccine and in most studies re-vaccination was required to sustain immunity. Some research into parrotfish and rabbitfish proteins which seem to have natural resistance offer hope.

"
Matthews (1995b) who used the grey mullet (Chelon labrosus) as an experimental host. They demonstrated the development of acquired immunity following challenge with theronts, which lasted for up to 6 months. However, many Æsh were not completely protected and produced a few trophonts upon challenge. This might explain renewed outbreaks of C. irritans at very long intervals of time:
Æsh which survive the initial outbreak will develop a certain degree of protection
and sustain small numbers of trophonts, thereby enabling the parasite to cycle at
low levels in the aquarium. Any event which subsequently diminishes the Æsh's
immunity, such as physiological stress due to adverse environmental conditions
or the introduction of non-immune Æsh to the aquarium, could enable the parasite
population to increase rapidly, causing a renewed outbreak of cryptocaryonosis. A
similar association between acquired immunity and epidemics has been described
for
I. multiÆliis
(Dickerson and Dawe, 1995)

(PDF) Cryptocaryon irritans Brown 1951, the cause of ‘white spot disease’ in marine fish: an update. Available from: https://www.researchgate.net/public...'white_spot_disease'_in_marine_fish_an_update[accessed Jan 20 2019].

 

[Feet4Fish]

I have used pleated micron filters to filter out the free swimming stages of CI. Well, I have used them, and the infections went away over time. I only have anecdote to support this, but the reasoning checks out.
I used nu clear canisters with 25 micron pleated filters, as they get dirty they get more efficient and filter out smaller stuff, so fluffing the sand in the display flocs the filter. Since the free swimming stages are like 18 micron, over a month or two it stands to reason that the filter would be filtering out that size particle. The canister was run off a mag 8, and pulled water directly from, and returned to, the 200 gallon display in which CI was showing up, but catching the fish out would have needed the display to be broken down. This was in conjunction with our vet. CI popped upu twice more in the first month, very few dots, and then didn't show up anymore. This was 4 years ago.
If the fish are healthy and eating and difficult to catch out, this would be my first step.

working on a system now and strongly considering DE filter as to filter out free swimming parasites. Nu-Clear cartridge filter seems like a like minded alternative at a lower cost and easier implementation. My question is that is it might take a month or two for the 25 micron pores to close down to 18 or lower. What did you use as you indicator for when to clean or replace the filter cartridge?

 

[ca1ore]

I am interested in having them cited here for this discussion. Non anecdotal is anything more than "I think my fish are immune because I don't see any ich anymore'.

Ok, here is my data:

1. Noted ich on my Hippo tang after a tank upgrade in the Fall of 2013. This was independent of any non quarantined fish additions so I assumed it had been there, asymptomatically, before the upgrade.
2. Symptoms disappeared over the subsequent week or two, and no other fish (including other tangs) ever showed any symptoms.
3. I chose to not fallow the tank.
4. At the same time, I had an Achilles Tang in QT, and agonized on whether to add it (more on this later). I ultimately did and it would occasionally show some minor spots.
5. Over the next few years, I added 30 more fish. Only one, a sailfin tang, showed any symptoms. Asymptomatic fish included a chevron tang, Naso tang, and lots of anthias, wrasses and damsels. I have had a very low mortality rate post QT.
6. Fast forward to 2017. Bought a black tang, put it through QT. Once in the display it proved to be a total wimp and got beaten up. Upon removal it developed a bad case of ich. Since recovered, it now lives in the refugium. At the same time, my then 4 year old Achilles tang died. No observable ich, but,the tming is suspisious.
7. Late 2017 did another tank upgrade. Saw a few transient spots on the same hippo tang, but nothing since on any fish, either established or new. I do occasionally lose a fish post QT as it acclimates to the tank, but its infrequent.

My own, non-scientific conclusions. Permanent resistance to ich is possible in a healthy fish population. Ich does not appear to die out in the absence of reinvigoration by additional strains. This assumes that I have successfully prevented any subsequent strains.

 

[Thales]

working on a system now and strongly considering DE filter as to filter out free swimming parasites. Nu-Clear cartridge filter seems like a like minded alternative at a lower cost and easier implementation. My question is that is it might take a month or two for the 25 micron pores to close down to 18 or lower. What did you use as you indicator for when to clean or replace the filter cartridge?

You can also flock the pleated filter in the canister with DE if you like.

I stirred up the sand initially so a lot of that went into the filter right away, and watched the flow rate through the filter go down over time. I also stirred the sand regularly, and 'stormed' the tank, both efforts to remove the non swimming phases of the parasite which settle - I can't say that helped, but it did continue to make the filter more efficient. I took no notes on that, sadly. I didn't remove the filter for 4 months, then took the whole thing off line. I did see spots from time to time over the first month.
I wound not have done this on a full blown outbreak, for that I would have torn down the tank to get the fish out.

If I remember and have time, maybe I'll grab a ne clear filter with a pressure gauge or the flow monitoring kit from APEX and get some number on how fast it takes that filter to clog up. I don't know how we would convert that to micron rating - any ideas anyone?

 

[MnFish1]

With respect, this is simply not factually correct. Comparisons between our tank and the ocean are a stretch at best to begin with. However, fish in the ocean do succumb to parasites in both small and large scale dieoffs. While it is true that by some measures vast majority of fish in the ocean tend to be infected with parasites when caught for surveys. Many parasites, including ich and velvet, have relatively low acute mortality rates in the ocean. In most cases though the assumption is that a sick fish will succumb to predation. We don't know the impact on fish lifespan due to a chronic parasitic infection, but in aquaculture the impact of parasites is studied and deemed severe, even if a fish remains asymptomatic.

If you look at the data its actually interesting - in some areas its seasonal - CI for example is quite high one season - and low in others (http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1755-1315/137/1/012094/meta)

In another study approx 70 percent (average) had infection - but differed between species. https://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/25/d025p159.pdf

 

[MnFish1]

My own, non-scientific conclusions. Permanent resistance to ich is possible in a healthy fish population. Ich does not appear to die out in the absence of reinvigoration by additional strains. This assumes that I have successfully prevented any subsequent strains.

Curious - since you were continuously adding fish - how would you know this ( I might be misunderstanding the last sentence) - but you could have been adding more with each fish addition.. Some research suggests that strains die out after 10-11 generations - perhaps a year - or 2. (though if you use the maximum 76day fallow period - it seems it would be longer)?

 

[MnFish1]

Matthews (1995b) who used the grey mullet (Chelon labrosus) as an experimental host. They demonstrated the development of acquired immunity following challenge with theronts, which lasted for up to 6 months.

Unfortunately I deleted this article from my computer - or the follow up by Burgess. But one interesting thing is that although immunity seemed to decrease at the 6 month point (if its the study I'm thinking about they had 5 groups of fish - and necropsied each group at different points after vaccine) - they did not have any groups that they kept longer than 6 months - the wording they use 'up to 6 months' is because they didn't study any groups longer than 6 months - not that the immunity 'disappeared' at 6 months

 

[ca1ore]

Curious - since you were continuously adding fish - how would you know this ( I might be misunderstanding the last sentence) - but you could have been adding more with each fish addition.. Some research suggests that strains die out after 10-11 generations - perhaps a year - or 2. (though if you use the maximum 76day fallow period - it seems it would be longer)?

I quarantine all new fish, so what I am saying is that I do not believe that any further stain of ich has entered my tank. That the ich has not died out means one of two things. Either strains do not die out, or my assumption is incorrect and subsequent ones have made it through my QT process.

 

[MnFish1]

I quarantine all new fish, so what I am saying is that I do not believe that any further stain of ich has entered my tank. the ich has not died out means one of two things. Either strains do not die out, or my assumption is incorrect and subsequent ones have made it through my QT process.

This makes sense..... By the way - Im not at all sure that 'all strains die out' - but in at least 1 study - it was suggested that after 10-11 generations it was no longer 'infectious' and presumed to have died out...

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Many of the central systems I used for aquarium stores were provided by Aquanetics a company that no longer exists. The system paks as they were called had pleated cartridge filiters before the U.V. Theses systems were sized to the pump and matched to the U.V. as a plug and play system. They worked great and had a pressure Guage on the canister filter. When the pressure Guage hit a level that was at the threshold for best performance you replaced it with one on the shelf that was cleaned and ready to use. You then rinsed the heavy fines off the dirty cartridge and soaked a day or two in a bleach solution. After soaking you rinsed the cartridge and shook it out and let it air dry for several days. This cycle seemed to be about every two to three weeks. It worked great and the fish did exceptionally well in those systems.

 

[Feet4Fish]

Many of the central systems I used for aquarium stores were provided by Aquanetics a company that no longer exists. The system paks as they were called had pleated cartridge filiters before the U.V. Theses systems were sized to the pump and matched to the U.V. as a plug and play system. They worked great and had a pressure Guage on the canister filter. When the pressure Guage hit a level that was a these old for best performance you replaced it with one on the shelf that was cleaned and ready to use. You then rinsed the heavy fines off the dirty cartridge and soaked a day or two in a bleach solution. After soaking you rinsed the cartridge and shook it out and let it air dry for several days. This cycle seemed to be about every two to three weeks. It worked great a d the fish did exceptionally well in those systems.

Thanks for telling us that. I get so much useful info when I here how things are run in the commercial sector where living fish = money. Right now I am considering between two pleated cartridge systems. One is the Nu-Clear thenother being Lifegard rtl 100. I know the nuclear filter down to 25 micron with stock pleated cartridge. I am trying to verify the Lifegard...think 20 micron. Would plan on running a more coarse media upstream. My issue making sure I get the right system for the gallons. Working with about 700 gallons in total.

 

[Mortie31]

Thanks for telling us that. I get so much useful info when I here how things are run in the commercial sector where living fish = money. Right now I am considering between two pleated cartridge systems. One is the Nu-Clear thenother being Lifegard rtl 100. I know the nuclear filter down to 25 micron with stock pleated cartridge. I am trying to verify the Lifegard...think 20 micron. Would plan on running a more coarse media upstream. My issue making sure I get the right system for the gallons. Working with about 700 gallons in total.

What do you think of these as an alternative? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Water-Filter-Cartridge-filtration-Harvesting/dp/B0049GSZG2

 

[Lowell Lemon]

What do you think of these as an alternative? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Water-Filter-Cartridge-filtration-Harvesting/dp/B0049GSZG2

Those should work just fine. They might need to be cleaned more often than a course 25 micron filter.

 

[AcanthurusRex]

From: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FA/FA16400.pdf

Fish that survive a Cryptocaryon infection develop immunity, which can prevent significant disease for up to
6 months (Burgess 1992; Burgess and Matthews 1995). However, these survivors may act as carriers and provide a reservoir for future outbreaks (Colorni and Burgess 1997).

Burgess, P.J. 1992. Cryptocaryon irritans Brown, 1951 (Ciliophora): transmission and immune response in the mullet Chelon labrosus (Risso, 1826). Ph.D. thesis, Univer- sity of Plymouth.

Colorni, A. and P. Burgess. 1997. Cryptocaryon irritansBrown 1951, the cause of “white spot disease” in marine fish: an update. Aquarium Sciences and Conservation, 1: 217–238.

http://scsagr.scsfri.ac.cn/upimg/200853010029.pdf
http://nsgl.gso.uri.edu/hawau/hawauy09002.pdf

The third paper appears to contradict the "carriers" conclusion of the older Burgess paper quoted. In that study, immunity was 100% after a moderate infection. This would effectively break the life cycle and eradicate the parasite. The study also indicated that immunity from one strain does not infer immunity to another.
My conclusion is that there is no money in this and we are on our own to break the life cycle.