Cupramine or Velvet or Both

[kesh]

- Hi.. I've noticed my sailfin swimming into the flow of powerhead a month ago (potential velvet).
- A bit of background, i added cupramine and dosed accordingly. I tested using Salifert and it
somewhat seemed 0.4/0.5 ish.
- However, my filter media was absorbing copper (biomax) and after about a month trying to get
stable cupramine levels, it is somewhat constant (i need time to seed some sponges b4 removing
the biomax)
- The problem is that throughout this one month period, my Salfin used to occassionally hang near
the filter flow, flash, and scratch around.
- I figured it still had velvet since my cupramine levels were fluctuating.

- Now, for the past few days, the levels have been stable but instead the salfin have started to sleep
right under the filter flow and its still flashing.
- Since my levels were testing fine, I added ten more drops of cupramine just to ramp it up a little
since the symptoms were still there.
- Within 10 minutes of doing so, i saw my sailfin lying sideways on the floor breathing heavily.
- Alarmed, i diluted the water with 1 gallon of freshwater and he recovered shortly swimming again.
- So that situation i guess was due to copper and it already being at theraupetic level and i refrained
from adding somemore. .
- Few days have past, he still sleeps under the filter and twitches, darting around.
- Again, i tried to add 10 more drops of cupramine just to be sure in case i was matching the colour
wrong.
- AGAIN, the above happen and when i added some freshwater, miraculously, he recovered. I
honestly thought it was dead, but it pulled through.
- So, could the sleeping under the filter flow and twitching around be sign of velvets
or irritation to cupramine?
- Does the recovering after adding a little bit of freshwater suggest the copper is at max of what the
fish can take (ie 0.6 and it's definitely within therauptic)
- I've a clown in there that occassionally still scratches.
- My copper level is definitely at least 0.35, may, may not be, over even exceed 0.5 but it's definitely
around 0.5.
- I dont want to add anymore cupramine since im pretty sure the test kit is showing about 0.5 and
the above episodes of even adding 10 drops (26g qt) but the behaviour is still persisting.

Both fish have no spots on them, but I've lost fish in the past to velvet without seeing a single spot on them, just the above behaviours. (those fish were not treated with copper, so, it was definitely the disease that wiped them out)
@Humblefish and everyone, pls help

 

[Brew12]

- Hi.. I've noticed my sailfin swimming into the flow of powerhead a month ago (potential velvet).
- A bit of background, i added cupramine and dosed accordingly. I tested using Salifert and it
somewhat seemed 0.4/0.5 ish.
- However, my filter media was absorbing copper (biomax) and after about a month trying to get
stable cupramine levels, it is somewhat constant (i need time to seed some sponges b4 removing
the biomax)
- The problem is that throughout this one month period, my Salfin used to occassionally hang near
the filter flow, flash, and scratch around.
- I figured it still had velvet since my cupramine levels were fluctuating.

- Now, for the past few days, the levels have been stable but instead the salfin have started to sleep
right under the filter flow and its still flashing.
- Since my levels were testing fine, I added ten more drops of cupramine just to ramp it up a little
since the symptoms were still there.
- Within 10 minutes of doing so, i saw my sailfin lying sideways on the floor breathing heavily.
- Alarmed, i diluted the water with 1 gallon of freshwater and he recovered shortly swimming again.
- So that situation i guess was due to copper and it already being at theraupetic level and i refrained
from adding somemore. .
- Few days have past, he still sleeps under the filter and twitches, darting around.
- Again, i tried to add 10 more drops of cupramine just to be sure in case i was matching the colour
wrong.
- AGAIN, the above happen and when i added some freshwater, miraculously, he recovered. I
honestly thought it was dead, but it pulled through.
- So, could the sleeping under the filter flow and twitching around be sign of velvets
or irritation to cupramine?
- Does the recovering after adding a little bit of freshwater suggest the copper is at max of what the
fish can take (ie 0.6 and it's definitely within therauptic)
- I've a clown in there that occassionally still scratches.
- My copper level is definitely at least 0.35, may, may not be, over even exceed 0.5 but it's definitely
around 0.5.
- I dont want to add anymore cupramine since im pretty sure the test kit is showing about 0.5 and
the above episodes of even adding 10 drops (26g qt) but the behaviour is still persisting.

Both fish have no spots on them, but I've lost fish in the past to velvet without seeing a single spot on them, just the above behaviours. (those fish were not treated with copper, so, it was definitely the disease that wiped them out)
@Humblefish and everyone, pls help

Have you done a fresh water dip to check for flukes?

 

[kesh]

Have you done a fresh water dip to check for flukes?

I did once previously when i just bought them but I forgot to check the container. I'll try to do again in few days time to give the sailfin time to recover. Although he bounced back after the cupramine episode, he is not eating yet.

 

[Humblefish]

Have you done a fresh water dip to check for flukes?

+1 Need to eliminate flukes from this equation. Also, parasite trophonts feed on a fish's body & gills and the damage doesn't heal instantly; so it's not unusual for a fish to still show behavioral symptoms even after the trophonts are gone.

 

[kesh]

Alright,

+1 Need to eliminate flukes from this equation. Also, parasite trophonts feed on a fish's body & gills and the damage doesn't heal instantly; so it's not unusual for a fish to still show behavioral symptoms even after the trophonts are gone.

Alright, so those behavioural symptons (ie, sleeping under filter etc) are parasite related? I've not used cupramine b4, so I dont know what are the possible reaction aside from heavy breathing, appetite suppression and faded colours.

 

[CindyKz]

I had a similar issue with a midas blenny just last week. He was swimming into the flow of the HOB so I put him and his tank mate into 0.3 mg/L of cupramine, thinking velvet just like you did. The tankmate (a dottyback) handled it fine but the blenny looked awful by the next day - laying in the bottom lethargic, not eating, stresssed colors. Plus his tail was ragged. The ragged tail immediately made me think flukes so I removed him from the cupramine and put him in a fresh tank with prazipro. He's still in the prazi and looks great except for his tail, which is practically gone. An experienced reefing friend later pointed out to me that it might not have been flukes that damaged his tail but the dottyback. I still don't know for sure what happened

 

[Humblefish]

Alright, so those behavioural symptons (ie, sleeping under filter etc) are parasite related? I've not used cupramine b4, so I dont know what are the possible reaction aside from heavy breathing, appetite suppression and faded colours.

Fish with velvet tend to be light sensitive, so sleeping under the filter could be related to that.

Copper can cause a wide range of side effects (including those you described); IME how sensitive a fish is copper is more of an individual thing than a genus/species thing. Just like you & I go the doctor with the same infection, are written a Rx for the same ABX, and you do fine on it while I have bad side effects from it.

 

[kesh]

Glad to hear the benny doing well. So, does it still hang out near the flow after the prazi. Interesting if that also turns out to be symptom of flukes.

 

[Brew12]

Glad to hear the benny doing well. So, does it still hang out near the flow after the prazi. Interesting if that also turns out to be symptom of flukes.

Anything that damages the gills can cause a fish to swim into flow. Ammonia poisoning, flukes, velvet, ich....

Its an effort to get more gas exchange through those damaged gills.

 

[kesh]

Fish with velvet tend to be light sensitive, so sleeping under the filter could be related to that.

Copper can cause a wide range of side effects (including those you described); IME how sensitive a fish is copper is more of an individual thing than a genus/species thing. Just like you & I go the doctor with the same infection, are written a Rx for the same ABX, and you do fine on it while I have bad side effects from it.

I did observe it was light sensitive when i just got it. I off all my lights at night and it's pitch black. I went to check on it and when i turn on a nearby light, i saw it swim away from the HOB

 

[kesh]

Anything that damages the gills can cause a fish to swim into flow. Ammonia poisoning, flukes, velvet, ich....

Its an effort to get more gas exchange through those damaged gills.

Noted. I'll have him stay in cupramine another two weeks and see how it goes. Otherwise, I'll try paraguard for flukes if freshwater dip indicates presence of flukes. Prazi is not available here. Is it safe to do freshwater dip and then return it to copper water? Also, my tank is in hypo. I've read Humble article than hypo prevents egg hatching of flukes. Is it possible to rule out flukes then?

 

[Brew12]

Noted. I'll have him stay in cupramine another two weeks and see how it goes. Otherwise, I'll try paraguard for flukes if freshwater dip indicates presence of flukes. Prazi is not available here. Is it safe to do freshwater dip and then return it to copper water? Also, my tank is in hypo. I've read Humble article than hypo prevents egg hatching of flukes. Is it possible to rule out flukes then?

Yup, a FW dip will be fine to do and return to copper. It is much less stressful on fish than people make it out to be.

 

[CindyKz]

Glad to hear the benny doing well. So, does it still hang out near the flow after the prazi. Interesting if that also turns out to be symptom of flukes.

No, I only observed that behavior the one time and as Brew pointed out in another thread, it may have been normal behavior for this species. I didn't see any flukes following a FW dip either but I'm not terribly experienced. I'm not sure I would have seen them.

I am continuing the Prazi because I'm not 100% certain whether the swimming into the powerhead, heavy breathing while in low dose copper, and ragged tail are flukes or a combination of other factors. He's tolerating the Prazi easily so the risk seems low.