Cupramine working ?

[EricTheRed]

Hi,
So one of my tanks is fish and cuc, no coral. I added a fish that broke out in crypt after about a week. (No new fish in a while...QT dismantled...living on the edge and got burned!)

So I took out the snails and hermits and put them in another tank with the expectation of running Cupramine. I added the proper amount based on my water volume and even tested the level to ensure it was where it needed to be. All seemed well until the fish ended up dying about a week after treatment. I wasn't shocked, assuming the fish was too far gone by the time treatment started.

Then...I noticed 3 mexican turbos still alive and well....after 1 week of copper.

Have others experienced snails surviving Cupramine or is this a sure sign my Cupramine is useless?

 

[redfishbluefish]

@Humblefish might be able to respond to this.

Did this tank have sand and live rock? It is my understanding that maintaining proper levels in the presence of sand/rock is difficult. That sand/rock is now "contaminated" with copper as well.

 

[Humblefish]

Did this tank have sand and live rock? It is my understanding that maintaining proper levels in the presence of sand/rock is difficult. That sand/rock is now "contaminated" with copper as well.

^^ This. Rock/sand will absorb some of the copper and then leach it back out, making it difficult to maintain a stable Cu level. When you tested, what exactly was the Cu reading? Also, which test kit did you use?

 

[EricTheRed]

^^ This. Rock/sand will absorb some of the copper and then leach it back out, making it difficult to maintain a stable Cu level. When you tested, what exactly was the Cu reading? Also, which test kit did you use?

I tested using an API test. I do have a 2" sb but not much rock, mostly tonga. (nutrients are primarily kept in check by carbon dosing)
I have tested the levels daily and did notice a small drop in the level so I added more cupramine to bring it back up. The level has remained fairly constant at 0.50.
I understand that a fluctuation in copper can affect ich treatment success....but what about the snails? Are you saying that they only die if the copper level is a constant 0.50?

I know Cupramine is safer/milder on fish...as such, is it also less toxic to snails & hermits. Or do I need to pitch this bottle in the trash...?

 

[Breakthecycle2]

I tested using an API test. I do have a 2" sb but not much rock, mostly tonga. (nutrients are primarily kept in check by carbon dosing)
I have tested the levels daily and did notice a small drop in the level so I added more cupramine to bring it back up. The level has remained fairly constant at 0.50.
I understand that a fluctuation in copper can affect ich treatment success....but what about the snails? Are you saying that they only die if the copper level is a constant 0.50?

I know Cupramine is safer/milder on fish...as such, is it also less toxic to snails & hermits. Or do I need to pitch this bottle in the trash...?

No, I think that cupramine is more harsh on fish and products like coppersafe and copper power are less toxic. I could be wrong.

 

[melypr1985]

No, I think that cupramine is more harsh on fish and products like coppersafe and copper power are less toxic. I could be wrong.

^^^this

 

[Breakthecycle2]

Thats good because I only use coppersafe now. lol.

 

[EricTheRed]

I ran out of copper power, never had any issues with it when I ran my QT. Then why does it seem everyone is so in love with Cupramine?

 

[stunreefer Verified Sponsor]

Cupramine is, IMO/IME, the safest copper treatment to use. There is lots of room for error, Seachem claims "four-fold concentration gap between therapeutic dose and the toxic dose."

Cupramine is not readily absorbed into sand and rock as other treatments are, but I'm sure some of it is. I treat in tanks without either so cannot comment further. There's more information on the Seachem website regarding this.

With any copper treatment I recommend starting day 1 with half the recommended dose and observing. Ramp up to full dose on day 2/3 depending on fishes reactions, namely while eating.

I know Cupramine is safer/milder on fish...as such, is it also less toxic to snails & hermits.

I do not believe these go hand in hand. Seachem claims Cupramine is toxic to inverts.

Or do I need to pitch this bottle in the trash...?

Cupramine has an indefinite shelf life.

 

[EricTheRed]

Thanks @stunreefer

 

[Humblefish]

I ran out of copper power, never had any issues with it when I ran my QT. Then why does it seem everyone is so in love with Cupramine?

I say this knowing Cupramine has been out for many years now... In this hobby, it's all about what's the latest & greatest. Everybody ran out and bought Cupramine because it supposedly was the "safest" copper to use on fish. Seachem even used the numbers (lower therapeutic levels) as part of their marketing ploy. However, what they failed to explain to everyone is it never was a straight up apples to apples comparison.

Cupramine is "ionic" copper, while products such as Coppersafe & Copper Power are "chelated" copper. So, it's more of an apples to oranges comparison. Which works better and which is actually gentler on the fish? I think the jury is still out on that one. I personally have used Cupramine and experienced problems with several fish refusing to eat/wasting away in it. Never had that problem in the 30+ years I used Coppersafe. Didn't even know what a "copper sensitive" fish was back then.

I'll give you one better. I never even heard of gill flukes until I started using Cupramine. Back in the 1990s, I did aquarium maintenance for 5-6 years. The owner treated all new fish with Coppersafe & antibiotics for at least one full month. We lost very few fish and once they went into the clients' tanks they almost never died. We had over 60 clients, and you would think if Coppersafe didn't also eradicate flukes we would have had at least one tank where the fish died one by one and we couldn't figure it out. On my to do list is treating a fish with flukes using Coppersafe to see if my little pet theory holds up. If so, this would eliminate the need to use prazi if one just treated with chelated copper.

 

[stunreefer Verified Sponsor]

On my to do list is treating a fish with flukes using Coppersafe to see if my little pet theory holds up. If so, this would eliminate the need to use prazi if one just treated with chelated copper.

Please keep us posted, this would obviously be super awesome fantastic

 

[EricTheRed]

I say this knowing Cupramine has been out for many years now... In this hobby, it's all about what's the latest & greatest. Everybody ran out and bought Cupramine because it supposedly was the "safest" copper to use on fish. Seachem even used the numbers (lower therapeutic levels) as part of their marketing ploy. However, what they failed to explain to everyone is it never was a straight up apples to apples comparison.

Cupramine is "ionic" copper, while products such as Coppersafe & Copper Power are "chelated" copper. So, it's more of an apples to oranges comparison. Which works better and which is actually gentler on the fish? I think the jury is still out on that one. I personally have used Cupramine and experienced problems with several fish refusing to eat/wasting away in it. Never had that problem in the 30+ years I used Coppersafe. Didn't even know what a "copper sensitive" fish was back then.

I'll give you one better. I never even heard of gill flukes until I started using Cupramine. Back in the 1990s, I did aquarium maintenance for 5-6 years. The owner treated all new fish with Coppersafe & antibiotics for at least one full month. We lost very few fish and once they went into the clients' tanks they almost never died. We had over 60 clients, and you would think if Coppersafe didn't also eradicate flukes we would have had at least one tank where the fish died one by one and we couldn't figure it out. On my to do list is treating a fish with flukes using Coppersafe to see if my little pet theory holds up. If so, this would eliminate the need to use prazi if one just treated with chelated copper.

Thanks, just looked up Coppersafe and their Petco ad actually states it treats ick, flukes (gyrodactylus), anchor worms, velvet/protozoan diseases and other external freshwater parasites.

 

[Humblefish]

Thanks, just looked up Coppersafe and their Petco ad actually states it treats ick, flukes (gyrodactylus), anchor worms, velvet/protozoan diseases and other external freshwater parasites.

I had a conversation with Mardel about flukes & Coppersafe before Fritz bought the Coppersafe brand. Gyrodactylus is a genus of freshwater flukes. They told me they've never experimented with saltwater flukes (Ancyrocephaladae, Gyrodactylidae, Capsalidae) and Coppersafe.

 

[brwaldbaum]

On my to do list is treating a fish with flukes using Coppersafe to see if my little pet theory holds up. If so, this would eliminate the need to use prazi if one just treated with chelated copper.

Ever get a chance to do this?

 

[Humblefish]

Ever get a chance to do this?

Yes and it failed. Fish still had skin flukes (confirmed via FW dip) at both the 1 & 2 week mark after being in Coppersafe. The infestation was so bad that I actually lost the fish during Prazipro treatment, which leads me to believe chelated copper had 0 impact on the monogeneans.

I believe @melypr1985 has experienced similar results with flukes & Coppersafe (no impact on them).