Cyanide collected fish?

[Fishfreak2009]

Anybody have any treatments for reversing damage done by cyanide collection? I lost a beautiful regal angelfish today to what the veterinarian and I believed to be damage caused by cyanide. It was a 5" long female from Bali who came into the LFS on Thanksgiving night. I picked her up in a black Friday sale. She never ate the entire time I had her. Upon necropsy, her liver had multiple abscesses, as did her spleen and intestinal tract. The stomach was full of bloody pus, and it as well as the intestines were severely atrophied. This fish had gone through a freshwater/formalin bath upon arrival at home (prophylactic for flukes/velvet) and 2 weeks of copper sulfate/praziquantel (also prophylactic for flukes/ich/velvet). The fish lived in hyposaline (S.G. 1.009) conditions until it died today. Also received two baths in methylene blue about 48 hours apart last week (since I suspected cyanide poisoning). Also received treatment for 10 days with erythromycin starting the second week of quarantine, as one of the other fish in quarantine was showing symptoms of a bacterial infection (which quickly cleared up with 10 days of antibiotics). It was forcefed starting December 1st, as the fish was losing weight fast.

Anybody have advice on what they'd do differently?

 

[cowboy]

I am curios on this one so will follow and call a bit of help from @Humblefish.

 

[Humblefish]

The only treatment I know of for cyanide poisoning (and it's mostly anecdotal) is methylene blue.

However, I've also autopsied several fish with liver damage after having to combine too many meds on them due to multiple ailments.

FYI; testing for thiocyanate - a byproduct of cyanide detoxification that fish excrete in their urine - is a new method for determining if a fish has been collected using cyanide: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0035355

I personally think this horrible technique is still running rampant and is to blame for many "mysterious fish deaths" in both DT & QT environments.

 

[mkutsch]

Oof, yikes. I recently studied cyanide induced infections in aquatic life, and it certainly isn't pretty. Jeez, I'm sorry about your queen! That sucks. But humblefish, are you sure about meth blue? I'm not saying it's wrong, but for most animals, too much can cause the formation of methemoglobin in the blood... of course, there is no other way, so I guess one wouldn't have anything to lose.

 

[mkutsch]

But wow, you really did all you could to save it...

 

[Fishfreak2009]

I did use the methylene blue purely for that chance that anecdotal would prove to be right. And I would hope that this medication regiment didn't do the fish in. I had three multibar angels, another regal, and a coral beauty go through the same quarantine no worse for wear.

 

[mkutsch]

Don't take it the wrong way, I was just wondering if fish could contract methemoglobinemia cause so many other things can. But wait you've used this treatment on other fish? What disease did they have? Did they survive?

 

[mkutsch]

I'm studying for a doctorate in oceanography and marine biology, so I've used meth blue in the past for CO2 indication, but not until recently did I find it could be used a medication for fish.

 

[Fishfreak2009]

Don't take it the wrong way, I was just wondering if fish could contract methemoglobinemia cause so many other things can. But wait you've used this treatment on other fish? What disease did they have? Did they survive?

By the same treatment I meant the praziquantel, copper sulfate, hyposalinity, formalin dips, and erythromycin. All of those I use for every fish before it goes into my tank, except for the erythromycin, but the other regal angel in the quarantine developed open red sores, which quickly cleared with 10 days of antibiotics.

 

[mkutsch]

Hmmm

 

[Fishfreak2009]

I'm studying for a doctorate in oceanography and marine biology, so I've used meth blue in the past for CO2 indication, but not until recently did I find it could be used a medication for fish.

It's actually used in dogs for treatment of many types of poison ingestion. I work for a veterinarian, and we have a large bottle on hand for the dogs that get into old arsenic in barns in the old rat poisons.

 

[justingraham]

Wait u have a vetanarian for ur fish? And sorry for ur loss

 

[mkutsch]

Interesting. Wait!! Maybe not indication for CO2- cells and stuff- I forget more the more I learn, heheh...
Welp, I'm sorry for your loss. That sucks....hope nothing else suffers the Same fate... good luck

 

[Fishfreak2009]

Wait u have a vetanarian for ur fish? And sorry for ur loss

I work for a veterinarian, and if he's not able to answer a medication question or diagnoses than I call up the specialty lab that we work with and I send samples to the University of Florida and have an over the phone consult.

For those interested, the reference laboratory is Idexx. Most veterinarians have access to them, and they can do necropsies as well as pretty much any disease testing or bacterial culture and susceptibility test (hence erythromycin) for fish both fresh and salt.

 

[mkutsch]

Ahh, that's really cool!

 

[justingraham]

I work for a veterinarian, and if he's not able to answer a medication question or diagnoses than I call up the specialty lab that we work with and I send samples to the University of Florida and have an over the phone consult.

Wow that's a great tool to have

 

[Humblefish]

But humblefish, are you sure about meth blue?

@Lionfish Lair and I have had some discussions regarding cyanide and methylene blue. We never found anything supporting a direct link but we did find the following:

Still anecdotal, but below is from Fenner: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/methblueart.htm

There is evidence that utilizing Methylene Blue in concentration in the process of acclimating marine livestock reduces toxicity of nitrite and cyanide. The author (RMF) has used Methylene Blue as such a dip/bath adjunct for many years with good success. Please see here re: Dips/Baths. Methylene Blue converts otherwise bound Methemoglobin back to useful Hemoglobin in fishes' blood... it is useful in the in situ detoxification of nitrite and cyanide... Useful in dips/baths of newly imported livestock indeed.

Never could get access to this ancient article, but it might establish a relationship between cyanide & M Blue for FW fish: http://jamanetwork.com/journals/archneurpsyc/article-abstract/652726#References

Moving in the right direction, at least this study shows M Blue can increase O2 consumption even in SW: http://www.biolbull.org/content/84/2/164.abstract

 

[Humblefish]

This is sort of interesting: http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov/eisler/CHR_23_Cyanide.pdf

At lethal levels, cyanide is primarily a respiratory poison and one of the most rapidly effective toxicants known (Leduc et al. 1982). The detoxification mechanism of cyanide is mediated by thiosulfate sulfur transferase, also known as rhodanese. This enzyme is widely distributed in animals, including fish liver, gills, and kidney. Rhodanese plays a key role in sulfur metabolism, and catalyzes the transfer of a sulfane-sulfur group to a thiophilic group (Leduc 1984). Thiosulfate administered in the water with cyanide reduced the toxicity of cyanide to fish, presumably by increasing the detoxification rate of cyanide to thiocyanate (Towill et al. 1978).

 

[Fishfreak2009]

It seems to me as if the irreversable damage has already been inflicted by the time the fish are purchased in a retail setting. Perhaps someone should do a study using these proposed treatments in fish exposed to known doses of cyanide as well as having a control group. Once a proper LD50 is found and all that good stuff is worked out, perhaps there would be a cheap fix for collectors that still use this method, and bring mortality rates down for everyone. Lower mortality means higher profit, so some wholesalers should see the merit in a study like this.

In the meantime, I'll be supporting the LFS in my area that do not direct ship fish from areas known for this. I will no longer buy fish from these regions, unless handled through a quality wholesaler. Lately my two favorite fish stores have been stocking a lot of fish from A&M Aquatics in Lansing MI and Segrest Farms in FL and the fish have all been top notch.

 

[Humblefish]

@Fishfreak2009 I would love to be a wholesaler, do random testing for thiocyanate in the bag water and cut off any collector I catch using cyanide. I really feel it is responsible for a lot of unexplained, random fish deaths.