cyano help..

[tropicaltrav]

so im having a cyano outbreak ever since i added egg crate to my tank but i also plumbed another clean fresh tank into the same system.. does it just have to cure? as in bacteria will fight it off as the tank gets older? .. ive never had a problem with it before until i added the eggcrate.. and now i have it obviously... soo any tips on how to rid my tank of cyano.. or will it just go away itself?

 

[ritter6788]

Is it just on the egg crate?

 

[ironworker]

i used red slime away and it worked wonders my skimmer was useless for a few days but no other adverse effects. i keep a mixed reef with acros

 

[Dog Boy Dave]

If your husbandry and design is good it will go away as it uses the excess nutrients from the new stuff you have added. Doesn't hurt a thing in a healthy system.

 

[Soehl]

If your husbandry and design is good it will go away as it uses the excess nutrients from the new stuff you have added. Doesn't hurt a thing in a healthy system.

Agreed. Just ride it out. Make sure your params are good and it will pass... Few weeks. I had it when my rocks leached phosphate from the sand, really thick, then it was gone. Just takes time. Crabs and snails might help too.

 

[robert]

If your husbandry and design is good it will go away as it uses the excess nutrients from the new stuff you have added. Doesn't hurt a thing in a healthy system.

The original post read in part:

so im having a cyano outbreak ever since i added egg crate to my tank but i also plumbed another clean fresh tank into the same system..

When you say it will go away as it uses the excess nutrients form the new stuff...if as the OP says - it was a clean system - to what excess nutrients are you referring?

And while I would generally agree that minor cyano outbreaks are nothing to get too worked up about - they are not totally innocuous as cyano can set the stage for other pathogens which are quite destructive. See: Red Slime Algae (RSA) or Red Band Disease (RBD) - Aquarium Coral Diseases

I suspect the addition of the volume of a "clean system" addition has upset the phosphate/nitrate balance (below 6:1 nitrate to phosphate) and that a chemi-clean treatment should kill the exposed cyano and in the process elevate the N ration back over 6:1 impeding its dominance.

If the volume of the "clean system" is large, or the available waste is insufficient for the chemi-clean to correct the imbalance - you can increase nitrate directly with with a little sodium nitrate.

 

[tropicaltrav]

The original post read in part:



When you say it will go away as it uses the excess nutrients form the new stuff...if as the OP says - it was a clean system - to what excess nutrients are you referring?

And while I would generally agree that minor cyano outbreaks are nothing to get too worked up about - they are not totally innocuous as cyano can set the stage for other pathogens which are quite destructive. See: Red Slime Algae (RSA) or Red Band Disease (RBD) - Aquarium Coral Diseases

I suspect the addition of the volume of a "clean system" addition has upset the phosphate/nitrate balance (below 6:1 nitrate to phosphate) and that a chemi-clean treatment should kill the exposed cyano and in the process elevate the N ration back over 6:1 impeding its dominance.

If the volume of the "clean system" is large, or the available waste is insufficient for the chemi-clean to correct the imbalance - you can increase nitrate directly with with a little sodium nitrate.

hmm how would 1 go about this? i have a yellow tang about 4" and a 2 in clown if that.. in about a 100g system and i do not feed anything other than dried nori.. so my phosphates and nitrates are at 0.. so being the added tank just the bacteria was thrown off?

 

[robert]

If you've got rock or sand you've got phosphate - even some new sand (depending on source) has phosphate as high as 161 ppm.
The very fact that your growing cyano means you have phosphate - even if its below the levels your test kit can pick up.

NItrate indeed may be very low (and probably is), meaning only organisms which can use dissolved N2 gas and consume inorganic carbon can grow. That prevents the establishment of many of the algaes and bacteria (which can't use N2 gas directly) and favors the growth of cyano which can.

Chemi-clean is an oxidizer which kills the cyano directly and in doing so liberates the nitrogen and phosphate in the cyano, only now the nitrogen is in the form of nitrate not N2 gas. This liberated nitrate can be used by other algaes and bacteria - giving them a chance to establish.

So...if you have enough cyano - chemi-clean may be all it takes to get the N ration up over the 6:1 ratio needed to break cyano's dominance. If there isn't enough waste or cyano present - chemi-clean will kill the cyano but it will simply come back because the ration of N remains below 6:1.

If the tank is really new and there is not enough cyano or waste in the system for chemi-clean to break down to correct the N imbalance - you can add additional nitrate to do the same thing. I have used calcium nitrate/ magnesium nitrate, ammonium nitrate and sodium nitrate. I like the sodium nitrate. A quart of 2-0-0 available from any hydroponics store costs about $12, is very clean (free of metals) and will last forever. You don't need much - 3 to 5 ml in 100 gallons will probably give you what you need - or you can go with chemi-clean and dose a second time if the cyano comes back. Your basically doing the same thing either way.

 

[Dog Boy Dave]

Cyano dosent hurt a thing. I can however direct you to hundreds of threads dealing with problems caused by attempts to get rid of the symptom of excess nutrients (ie Cyano) instead of addressing the husbandry or design issues that contribute to having it grow in your display to start with. If the system was clean in the place the cyano grows then it wouldnt grow there. If it grows on your display and covers or interferes with your corals then address the nutrient issues as the cyano is just a symptom anyway. If it is growing in a place where it doesnt interfere with your corals then be glad that you can grow something to break down your excess nutrients. I dont have it in my display however, I have cyano growing in several places in my system. Doesnt hurt a thing and contributes to the overall nutrient cycle. I can back up what I say with results. Before you start to chase a bunch of numbers look at some long term older systems and look at how they do it. It isnt that hard to keep these guys if you design the sytem and set it up correctly to begin with. Most of the older systems establish many different zones of nutrient reduction. In many systems the conditions for cyano exist without any negative affects to the animals in the display.

 

[robert]

Dave - I've seen you system in another thread - very well done and quite beautiful.

I agree - cyano by itself is really not an issue. I have a few places in my sump that tend to develop cyano from time to time and it does nothing at all to the inhabitants in my system.
Cyano doesn't even necessarily mean your systems dirty - indeed in many cases it points to a clean system with a nutrient imbalance - and I too can show you both systems and studies which explain better what I am driving at.

While I agree cyano in its place is nothing to worry about - I wanted to point out that cyano on corals often leads to disease and death.

I've posted these references before - I'll re-include them at the bottom read or not at your pleasure. More if you want em...

"Heterotrophic dinoflagellates with symbiotic cyanobacteria and nitrogen limitation in the Gulf of Aqaba"

ABSTRACT: Many symbiotic associations characteristic of tropical and subtropical oceanic waters
were observed near shore during a long-term study of the microbiota in the northern part of the Gulf of
Aqaba, Red Sea. Among such associations were the heterotrophlc dinophysoid genera Omithocercus,
Histioneis and Citharistes with cyanobacterial symbionts. The detection of these heterotroph-autotroph
consortia repeatedly coincided with extended nitrogen limitation in the fall season. Populations of
free-living cyanobacteria, with known N fixation capability, such as the unicellular Synechococcus/
Synechocystis spp. and colonial forms, e.g. Trichodesmiurn spp., also peaked at the same time. We
propose that heterotrophic dinoflagellate hosts may provide the cyanobacterial symbionts with the
anaerobic microenvironment necessary for efficient N fixation. Thus, these self-supporting consortia
increase in numbers during the long period of stratification and nitrogen limitation in the oligotrophic
subtropical waters of the Gulf of Aqaba.

And another - lakes - but the same principle.

THE IMPACT OF NITROGEN AND
PHOSPHORUS CONCENTRATION AND
N/P RATIO ON CYANOBACTERIAL
DOMINANCE AND N2 FIXATION
IN SOME ESTONIAN LAKES
ILMAR TÕNNO

"Cyanobacteria appear responsible for most of planktonic N2fix in
aquatic ecosystems, this ability gives a significant competitive advantage to
these organisms during the periods of nitrogen limitation (Tilman et al., 1982;
Howarth et al., 1988a; Leppänen et al., 1988)."

many hypotheses have been presented to explain cyanobacterial dominance and blooms in lakes. One of the
most common is resource ratio competition theory, predicting that cyano-
bacteria tend to dominate in lakes where the ratio of nitrogen and phosphorus
(P) is low, mainly because of the ability of some of these species to use
molecular nitrogen (Elser 1999). This theory has been proved both empirically
and experimentally. Cyanobacteria, both fixing and not fixing N2, tend to
dominate if the ratio of total nitrogen (TN) and total phosphorus (TP) in the
water column is below ca. 5–10 by mass (Schindler 1977, Seip 1994, Michard
et al., 1996, Bulgakov & Levich 1999),

 

[Dog Boy Dave]

I have seen cyano grow all over a recovering system that had a huge hair algae outbreak and finally subsequent algae crash. As the hair algae died off the cyano covered the dieing algae all the way to the edges of many of the colonies. Since the tank was being managed with a nutrient deficit, the tank was cleaning up. As the cyano used the excess nutrients, moslty from the dead algae it ran its course. None of the coral suffered at all during process. After the cyano ran its course, the rocks were covered with a thick mat algae that completly covered the rocks. After that ran its course the algae came off in sheets. The rocks were pink undrerneath and all the accros that were left in this system continued to thrive though out the year or so that the tank took to cycle through. I have seen many systems with cyano growing near and around corals. I have seen too many corals growing with cyno around to believe that the bacteria is anywhere near as dangerous to the corals as our attempts to eradicate it are.
I am not saying that cyano isnt somthing to notice and be aware of. It is an indicator of "high" nutrient levels in the localized area the outbreak covers. It is not generally an indicator of your total system health but it can be. However, in some places in some systems it is harmless. If you have it in places you dont want, I believe that one should change the system design or husbandry practices to address the issue. Do not use chemical methods that kill organisms in your system. Your system depends on diverse bacterial populations to function long term. Killing some of those is never good as you kill many that are needed as well as the ones that are percieved to be harmful.
Robert, I am sure that the attached lincs support your argument. I will try to look at them. To be honest, a lot of studies dont hold up in the pratical at home aquarium maintenance game. However, I have been keeping these guys for a long time. A lot of my animals have been in my system for longer than a decade and my oldest is alnost 20 years old. I have seen a lot of cyano in a lot of mine and other people's systems. I have seen people do a lot more harm to their systems chasing the cyano ghost than would have hppened if they would have just cleaned things up a little. Higher flow, some more rock in a dark place with flow. Maybe a little bacteria seeding if your desperate. These three things will do more for your system than all the magic bullet chemical additives that your good money can burn.

 

[tropicaltrav]

i have 0 phosphates and 0 nitrates.. so i think its just a bacteria issue.. so i pulled off my biopellets and threw on some carbon.. i wont run any of those chemicals for the reasons u have said.. i think its a bacteria issue because i added a tank and eggcrate to both tanks.. so i think it threw off the bacteria a but.. so i think in time it will disappear atleast i hope :/

 

[robert]

Dave - I don't disagree, especially with regard to older established tanks where a multitude of organisms are available to compete for nutrients and space. Good husbandry - control of the environment - flow and lighting are usually sufficient to deal with most problems.

In new systems without a diverse population of competing organisms and an immature and evolving nutrient balance - various phases of bacterial/algae dominance are common. The cyano/diano consortium is commonly recognized as one of these. Its not an indication of excess nutrients - but rather an indication of a nutrient imbalance.

Suppose I gave you three five gallon buckets of freshly mixed saltwater - well aerated. Into the first to dumped a healthy dose of phosphate- nothing else - Into the second you dumped a healthy dose of nitrate- nothing else and in the third you put a healthy dose of organic carbon, vinegar for instance and nothing else. You put them out in the sunlight and come back a week later - what would you find growing in each bucket? They all could be said to have excess nutrients but only one would be growing anything. What would be growing? Almost certainly cyano in the phosphate spiked bucket.

Unlike most everything else in our systems cyano needs only phosphate. It can get nitrogen from the air and carbon from carbonate or CO2 dissolved in the water. Not much else can compete with it when organic carbon or nitrate is in short supply. That's why IMO tropical has cyano in an otherwise clean system growing on of all things brand new egg crate. Its not excess nutrients - its just that cyano is the thing that can grow best with the nutrient balance in his system.

 

[jonbar1]

Dave - I don't disagree, especially with regard to older established tanks where a multitude of organisms are available to compete for nutrients and space. Good husbandry - control of the environment - flow and lighting are usually sufficient to deal with most problems.

In new systems without a diverse population of competing organisms and an immature and evolving nutrient balance - various phases of bacterial/algae dominance are common. The cyano/diano consortium is commonly recognized as one of these. Its not an indication of excess nutrients - but rather an indication of a nutrient imbalance.

Suppose I gave you three five gallon buckets of freshly mixed saltwater - well aerated. Into the first to dumped a healthy dose of phosphate- nothing else - Into the second you dumped a healthy dose of nitrate- nothing else and in the third you put a healthy dose of organic carbon, vinegar for instance and nothing else. You put them out in the sunlight and come back a week later - what would you find growing in each bucket? They all could be said to have excess nutrients but only one would be growing anything. What would be growing? Almost certainly cyano in the phosphate spiked bucket.

Unlike most everything else in our systems cyano needs only phosphate. It can get nitrogen from the air and carbon from carbonate or CO2 dissolved in the water. Not much else can compete with it when organic carbon or nitrate is in short supply. That's why IMO tropical has cyano in an otherwise clean system growing on of all things brand new egg crate. Its not excess nutrients - its just that cyano is the thing that can grow best with the nutrient balance in his system.

I agree. A similar low nitrate/high phosphate imbalance was also the cause of a dinoflagellate outbreak in my softie tank. It disappeared as soon as I raised nitrate above 0. Of course now it's a high nitrate high phos turf algae farm, but that's another story related to lack of budget...

You can raise nitrate slightly or reduce phosphate from unmeasurable to even more unmeasurable...raising nitrate is easier. Do you have any LPS corals? Spot feed them once or twice a week and levels should balance out. Siphon off the cyano you can reach during a waterchange if it looks unsightly. I've never tried adding sodium or potassium nitrate, but they are cheap to buy and KNO3 is one of the main additions to planted freshwater tanks.

 

[robert]

Hey Jonbar - I see your into planted freshwater systems!

It was a guy that was heavily into planted freshwater that explained the concepts of nutrient balance to me and how they might apply to a salt water system.
With salt water we tend to start with everything clean and let time build up the nutrient levels we want. In freshwater its more "set up with the levels you need and maintain them".

Taking the clue - I now set up all salt systems with the desired nutrient levels to start - I dose up the phosphate, nitrate and ammonium at the start and avoid many of the problems associated with new tank syndrome. Tanks cycle faster and mature faster without as many of the nuisance algae phases.

Oh - and in the bucket of cyano - if you simply kill the cyano in place - it breaks down into the perfect mix of organic carbon, nitrate and phosphate. 106:16:1...C:N... a partial water change and your there!