Cyano not responding to chemiclean

[reeferfoxx]

You can add phosphate through either pellet food or Seachem makes a phosphorus additive, just be VERY careful with dosing that. You can also skip rinsing frozen foods if you do that route to add some to the tank each feeding. Either way, go slow and observe. Too much PO4 and you can add new problems as fast as you're solving old ones.

Great looking tank!

The problem with food is it breaks down into more than just po4. Not only that the target po4 number is 0.10ppm. Dinos will most likely consume the available po4 before ot even amounts to anything. Seachem Phosphorus is the easiest method to raising the number. Not only is it a small dose but can easily be regulated. I dose 2ml to get 0.05ppm in 30 gallons.

 

[sfin52]

Each tank is different. So go slow but to target just po4 I second seachem. I started at one mil and ended up at 5 mil to a 75gal system

 

[tenurepro]

the more i look, the more i am convinced that it is Prorocentrum ... that notch 'v' shaped process where the flagellum comes out of is very obvious; a few examples below
http://botany.si.edu/references/dinoflagellates/prorocentrum_ar.htm
http://botany.si.edu/references/dinoflagellates/prorocentrum_be.htm
http://botany.si.edu/references/dinoflagellates/prorocentrum_fa.htm
http://botany.si.edu/references/dinoflagellates/prorocentrum_fora.htm
http://botany.si.edu/references/dinoflagellates/prorocentrum_hoff.htm
http://botany.si.edu/references/dinoflagellates/prorocentrum_mac.htm

Hi @mcarroll ; I promise to read the important thread that you mentioned, but will not be able to do all 117 pages anytime soon. Wondering if you can help with some of the ideas.

Given the ID is prorocentrum,
1) will something like dinoX work?
2) will a blackout work (I do notice it growing at night, so perhaps it’s not entirely dependent on photosynthesis)
3) will hydrogen peroxide work?
4) if I do the natural treatment of increasing no3 and po4 and let nature balance the system, do I stop skimming? Stop water changes? Turn off fuge?
5) I have high flow for sps (50x volume per hour), should I reduce flow, increase it?
6) should I continue running carbon?
7) almost all of the dinos are on the sand bed... should I remove the sand bed, soak it in fresh water or bleach and then add it back
8) would a uv sterilizer help?

Thanks to you and all the very helpful people that responded to this thread!

 

[taricha]

Hi @mcarroll ; I promise to read the important thread that you mentioned, but will not be able to do all 117 pages anytime soon. Wondering if you can help with some of the ideas.

Given the ID is prorocentrum,
1) will something like dinoX work?
2) will a blackout work (I do notice it growing at night, so perhaps it’s not entirely dependent on photosynthesis)
3) will hydrogen peroxide work?
4) if I do the natural treatment of increasing no3 and po4 and let nature balance the system, do I stop skimming? Stop water changes? Turn off fuge?
5) I have high flow for sps (50x volume per hour), should I reduce flow, increase it?
6) should I continue running carbon?
7) almost all of the dinos are on the sand bed... should I remove the sand bed, soak it in fresh water or bleach and then add it back
8) would a uv sterilizer help?

Thanks to you and all the very helpful people that responded to this thread!

You are right on ID, it's definitely prorocentrum. I love your sketch! Only key feature of prorocentrum that you left out that's in the photos is the circle structure in the center (pyrenoid).

@mcarrol does a good job of updating first post to index to key ideas and make reading most of thread not necessary.

...Based on the thread...

1-3 not recommended.
4. dose. Don't stop skimming, water changes, or cut fuge.
5 flow is fine, if you cut flow, proros can likely colonize more surfaces than just sand.
6 assuming you mean activated carbon, yes - proros can be toxic and livestock dieoff says yours is.
7 no. You want to selectively remove dino cells and support competition.
This would wipe out competition and give dinos free plentiful real estate.
8 yes. UV helps vs proros, and should be near a watt per 2 gallon. Be aware of killing dino cells releasing toxins.

 

[mcarroll]

For anyone who mentioned hesitation with dosing nutrients....

There's no reason to worry about targeting a number with something like Flourish...the results are calculated and instantaneous and verifiable. All good things. Goes for both nitrates and phosphates.

Trying to fix something like this with feeding is totally problematic by comparison. Even if it was the correct solution (it's not for the reason @reeferfoxx mentioned) it would be less than desirable to use because it's almost impossible to calculate the correct amount, the results are far from instantaneous since the nutrients have to traverse the whole microbial food web and of course there's no way to verify your progress in real time.

That said, more feeding and/or more regular and consistent feeding are both probably part of the longer-term solution of stabilizing the system.

 

[reeferfoxx]

For anyone who mentioned hesitation with dosing nutrients....

There's no reason to worry about targeting a number with something like Flourish...the results are calculated and instantaneous and verifiable. All good things. Goes for both nitrates and phosphates.

Trying to fix something like this with feeding is totally problematic by comparison. Even if it was the correct solution (it's not for the reason @reeferfoxx mentioned) it would be less than desirable to use because it's almost impossible to calculate the correct amount, the results are far from instantaneous since the nutrients have to traverse the whole microbial food web and of course there's no way to verify your progress in real time.

That said, more feeding and/or more regular and consistent feeding are both probably part of the longer-term solution of stabilizing the system.

I agree to an extent. Over feeding can cause more long term issues. We can't always assume the food will be eaten and not break down into ammonia or other unwanted dissolved organics. Not to mention fish stress and possible digestive issues. Unless you're giving a more specific feeding frequency, to say increase feeding blindly, isn't the right direction.

The problem with food is it breaks down into more than just po4.

This was incorrect?

 

[reeferfoxx]

For anyone who mentioned hesitation with dosing nutrients....

Post nutrient dosing....

And round two of a different strain of dino.

 

[Reefer1978]

Post nutrient dosing....

And round two of a different strain of dino.

Hey Reeferfoxx, did you confirm what species of Dinos you have?

 

[reeferfoxx]

Hey Reeferfoxx, did you confirm what species of Dinos you have?

I've somewhat confirmed the second round species. First round was different. It grew differently and in nutrient limited conditions. This second strain is Coolia spp. Seems to not be a nutrient hog like the first. In fact last nights po4 reading was 0.147ppm and nitrates were 0.50. However, I was running matrix up till a week ago. So nitrates were probably starting to go back up.

 

[Reefer1978]

I've somewhat confirmed the second round species. First round was different. It grew differently and in nutrient limited conditions. This second strain is Coolia spp. Seems to not be a nutrient hog like the first. In fact last nights po4 reading was 0.147ppm and nitrates were 0.50. However, I was running matrix up till a week ago. So nitrates were probably starting to go back up.

Hmmm... interesting.. Reason I asked, when I had dinos (2 years ago), I also had what looked like the same frag rack (Modular Marine I am guessing???), and dinos used to show up on inorganic surfaces first, way before rock, etc. Yours are all over the rock, but the frag-rack is clean....

Bump up those nitrates, .5 is nothing. I once accidently overdosed and got them to 50ppm... coral loved it.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Hmmm... interesting.. Reason I asked, when I had dinos (2 years ago), I also had what looked like the same frag rack (Modular Marine I am guessing???), and dinos used to show up on inorganic surfaces first, way before rock, etc. Yours are all over the rock, but the frag-rack is clean....

Bump up those nitrates, .5 is nothing. I once accidently overdosed and got them to 50ppm... coral loved it.

Well actually I cleaned the frag rack and pumps prior to this picture. It's something I do regularly.

Keep in mind the n and p hasnt been dosed in over 4 weeks. My po4 is still really high. But yes, no3 was dosed last night and will be this evening.

I know its hard to tell in the pics but the dinos are actually only growing on the hair algae and sandbed. The rocks stay mostly clean unless new hair algar is growing(which it is).

 

[tenurepro]

You are right on ID, it's definitely prorocentrum. I love your sketch! Only key feature of prorocentrum that you left out that's in the photos is the circle structure in the center (pyrenoid).

8 yes. UV helps vs proros, and should be near a watt per 2 gallon. Be aware of killing dino cells releasing toxins.

Hi @taricha ; you mentioned that UV helps with Prorocentrum? is that a 'prediction' (i.e. because UV typically works expect for a few species that stay on the sand), or 'evidenced-based' (i.e. someone had prorocentrum and knocked it down with UV).... thanks!!!! trying to decide on adding a UV to my attack plan

 

[taricha]

Appropriate size and flow UV is effective at reducing cell numbers of prorocentrum. It has been done in my systems and others.
Along with other measures, prorocentrum blooms have been ended with uv.

 

[mcarroll]

I agree to an extent. Over feeding can cause more long term issues. We can't always assume the food will be eaten and not break down into ammonia or other unwanted dissolved organics. Not to mention fish stress and possible digestive issues. Unless you're giving a more specific feeding frequency, to say increase feeding blindly, isn't the right direction.

This was incorrect?

No! Totally correct! That's why I called your quote out – you were dead-on – I was only trying to elaborate and explain why a little!

You're right that I failed to elaborate on "increased feeding" (beyond mentioning consistency too) mostly due to lack of time. You're right that there's no call for over-feeding.

However, measured increases in feeding probably are called for.

When a feeding change like this happens, it's important to be consistent and to be able to monitor the system for changes, side-effects.

Until someone gets a better feel for their own tank, I usually recommend only small changes to feeding regimes and to allow at least a month in between changes to monitor for side-effects. (This is the "getting to know your tank" part.)

Increases in feeding done this way are rarely problematic because it's too easy to see a problem as it happens and the problems are always small in scale...which sometimes demotes them from "problem" status altogether.

I highly recommend use of an auto-feeder to enhance the consistency aspect of feeding, unless you're someone who's around all the time and you can feed all the time.

Use an auto feeder to feed when you're not around. Use it to change when and how frequently the tank is fed.

Changing the total amount of food the tank is fed is something to consider separately and not something to take lightly.

There are so many problems around the process of introducting new fish into new tanks that can almost all be traced to the associated massive increase in feedings (nutrients) that new tank is suddenly receiving. Keeping nutrients present and keeping them consistent – both very important to overall stability.

Sorry for any misunderstanding!!!

 

[reeferfoxx]

Sorry for any misunderstanding!!!

Me too! I misunderstood. Sorry

 

[tenurepro]

Ok guys... started dosing phosphates (seachem) and resumed dosing KNO3; starting with 2 ml per day phosphorus; my po4 immediately increased to 0.07 ppm but that gets consumed really quickly; po4 drops to zero 24 hours later... will up the dose and try to make it gradual via doser. No3 increased from 1 to 1.5 over 2 days.... one question, I have two liters of siporax in my sump; should i remove half; my dinitrification May be too efficient. Thoughts? From my point of few, probably better to decrease dinitrifcation pontential vs increase KNO3 dosing; my potassium levels are already higher than ‘normal’ (460 ppm).

I plan on picking up a 36 watt UV sterilizer and will feed it from the display. I am hoping this will
Be sufficient for my 55 gal display (65 gal total volume)

Will also do a few water changes to siphon out sand. I plan to pick up some pods and bit of life rock this weekend to reseed things

If things go well ( = a reduction in the bloom) I am considering gradually removing the sand bed... I have about 3 inches of 1 mm figi pink; it tends to clump together and form hard bits over time. I am thinking that the sand is full of their little cysts and that removing the sand would reduce a large population of future colonizers.

Wish me luck!

 

[sfin52]

If your Dino's enter the water colum at night. If I read correctly they do. I wouldn't remove the sand. You will get them with the uv. Mcarroll or taricia would have better advice On the whole process with cysts in the sand. And if you should remove the sand or not.

 

[mcarroll]

one question, I have two liters of siporax in my sump; should i remove half; my dinitrification May be too efficient. Thoughts?

I'd remove it all....live rock should be adequate. Take it out in stages over a few days or a week if you have any worries.

 

[tenurepro]

It spreading to the rocks, yikes!
Put the 36w jebo uv online

Will siphon sand and blast rocks at lights out tonight.
I need to up my phosphate dosing m, 2ml of flourish phosphorus gets consumed overnight!

 

[reeferfoxx]

It spreading to the rocks, yikes!
Put the 36w jebo uv online

Will siphon sand and blast rocks at lights out tonight.
I need to up my phosphate dosing m, 2ml of flourish phosphorus gets consumed overnight!

Yep! These guys are sponges for nutrients. Morning and night dosings will have to happen until you reach your target. Then you can dial it back if you need.