Cyano problem becoming discouraging

[SaltHound]

My parameters in my 32 Gallon Biocube (3 1/2 months old):
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates:0
Potasium:0
Calcium:420
Ph: 8.4
Salinity: 1.026
Temp: 78

I am using a skimmer and a HOB refugium, flow seems adequate.

Livestock:

2 young clowns
1 spot tail Blenny
2 nassarius snails
2 turbo snails
I cleaner shrimp
1 blood red fir shrimp

1 hammer
1 elegance coral
1 duncan
3 zoa frags

A month ago I had a cyano outbreak. Rust colored over the sand bed and rocks, treated with chemiclean (lfs suggestion after seeing pictures) which cleared it in two days, did a water change, vacuumed the sand bed, 3 days later it is back just as strong. Can anyone advise me on how to eradicate this? I am ready to do a second treatment tonight but I am afraid of it coming back just as fast as it did last time. Everything else seems to be fine and thriving and I am becoming discouraged. Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[TheEngineer]

Do you mean 0 Phosphates? 0 Potassium would be a problem

Two thoughts come to mind:

1. You may not have cyano, you may have spirolina. They look similar in the tank, but spirolina is a lot harder to kill off.
2. This may just be a nutrient imbalance issue. Since your nutrients are so low, it makes the cyano able to outcompete the bacteria in your tank. Cyano can metabolize nitrogen from the air in the room. You might try boosting your nitrates and phosphates a bit. I know that seems counter-intuitive.

 

[mcarroll]

32 Gallon Biocube (3 1/2 months old)

2 young clowns
1 spot tail Blenny
2 nassarius snails
2 turbo snails
I cleaner shrimp
1 blood red fir shrimp

1 hammer
1 elegance coral
1 duncan
3 zoa frags

That's a very young tank to have so much livestock, especially if it was started with dead rock as most tanks seem to be. Brace yourself for a rough ride. (patience)

A month ago I had a cyano outbreak.

Not too surprising given the crush of livestock. The tank had a large influx of nutrients - you kinda simulated eutrophication.

Those nutrients, based on your test results, end up being depleted of phosphate and nitrate.

Cyano kinda seem to specialize in out-of-whack nutrient situations, so you're setting up a perfect environment for it.

If N and P conditions were better, you'd get a better algae - probably green hair.

If the tank were a little older and more stable, you'd get coraline algae.

You need to keep the cyano cleaned out if it's growing on corals (prolly just being ugly otherwise), but also keep the tank fed - maybe including a little fertilizer to balance nutrients out and get something better growing.

Nitrates:0
Potasium:0

Pretty sure you mean Phosphates?

These two are the indication of the real problem - nitrogen and phosphate starvation. Those are two of the most basic macro nutrients.

At 3.5 months old, your tank's entire microbial population should be booming but instead you're just growing cyano, which is the organism most adept at growing in the conditions you're providing.

Do you know why your nitrates and phosphates are so low? (ie Are you dosing a carbon source or using somemthing like GFO?)

 

[SaltHound]

That's a very young tank to have so much livestock, especially if it was started with dead rock as most tanks seem to be. Brace yourself for a rough ride. (patience)



Not too surprising given the crush of livestock. The tank had a large influx of nutrients - you kinda simulated eutrophication.

Those nutrients, based on your test results, end up being depleted of phosphate and nitrate.

Cyano kinda seem to specialize in out-of-whack nutrient situations, so you're setting up a perfect environment for it.

If N and P conditions were better, you'd get a better algae - probably green hair.

If the tank were a little older and more stable, you'd get coraline algae.

You need to keep the cyano cleaned out if it's growing on corals (prolly just being ugly otherwise), but also keep the tank fed - maybe including a little fertilizer to balance nutrients out and get something better growing.



Pretty sure you mean Phosphates?

These two are the indication of the real problem - nitrogen and phosphate starvation. Those are two of the most basic macro nutrients.

At 3.5 months old, your tank's entire microbial population should be booming but instead you're just growing cyano, which is the organism most adept at growing in the conditions you're providing.

Do you know why your nitrates and phosphates are so low? (ie Are you dosing a carbon source or using somemthing like GFO?)

Sorry that was a typo ...yes Phosphate is zero. I only dose Reef Fusion 1 and 2 (Ph and Calcium) 3 times a week. I use Purigen and Boyds Chemipure Elite. I also use Aquavitro Fuel once a week.

 

[SaltHound]

Do you mean 0 Phosphates? 0 Potassium would be a problem

Two thoughts come to mind:

1. You may not have cyano, you may have spirolina. They look similar in the tank, but spirolina is a lot harder to kill off.
2. This may just be a nutrient imbalance issue. Since your nutrients are so low, it makes the cyano able to outcompete the bacteria in your tank. Cyano can metabolize nitrogen from the air in the room. You might try boosting your nitrates and phosphates a bit. I know that seems counter-intuitive.

What would you recommend to increase both? I do feed very sparingly. Should I double up on the Aquavitro Fuel? Twice a week instead?

 

[brandon429]

Nano= easy to beat cyano without touching nutrients or ever measuring them or even identifying the invader.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...ead-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445

See last four pages

 

[SaltHound]

That's a very young tank to have so much livestock, especially if it was started with dead rock as most tanks seem to be. Brace yourself for a rough ride. (patience)



Not too surprising given the crush of livestock. The tank had a large influx of nutrients - you kinda simulated eutrophication.

Those nutrients, based on your test results, end up being depleted of phosphate and nitrate.

Cyano kinda seem to specialize in out-of-whack nutrient situations, so you're setting up a perfect environment for it.

If N and P conditions were better, you'd get a better algae - probably green hair.

If the tank were a little older and more stable, you'd get coraline algae.

You need to keep the cyano cleaned out if it's growing on corals (prolly just being ugly otherwise), but also keep the tank fed - maybe including a little fertilizer to balance nutrients out and get something better growing.



Pretty sure you mean Phosphates?

These two are the indication of the real problem - nitrogen and phosphate starvation. Those are two of the most basic macro nutrients.

At 3.5 months old, your tank's entire microbial population should be booming but instead you're just growing cyano, which is the organism most adept at growing in the conditions you're providing.

Do you know why your nitrates and phosphates are so low? (ie Are you dosing a carbon source or using somemthing like GFO?)

Nano= easy to beat cyano without touching nutrients or ever measuring them or even identifying the invader.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...ead-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445

See last four pages

I am new to the hobby and found this thread to be a bid overwhelming. However, I believe the jist was that the cyano was being influenced by the settling of detritus on the sand bed after it is disturbed? This would make sense, seeing as I do cloud the water everytime I vacuum. I have only done a complete vacuuming of the bed twice but the outbreak did begin immediately after the first.

I am wondering if this means that over time as more and more detritus is removed the problem becomes more managable.

 

[brandon429]

That's just one way of a few to work on cyano. The thread is detailed agreed, its fun to over analyze why those tanks don't die/lose invaders and nanos are easy to work with since they can be taken apart to clean out both the invader, and it's fuel.



There's no rush to implement the thread, I recommend considering those guys work examples over time and reading it all as time allows... you can put cleaning into action later and begin smaller safe increments at any time. Many times those reefers were moving tanks, so they had to disassemble. We just intercepted the rebuild step to force the new/old system to be cloud free.

Larger inaccessible tanks need no work ways to beat cyano, so water tuning and various additives became popular and do work. Ours is simply clean the tank a few times and be invader free via work done in a certain order of steps. Water tuning works for any aquarium, our way is just faster and thorough. Learn both ways is ok, have a toolbox of skills to employ

The sand rinse is a deep aquarium dive so until you feel comfortable repeating the safety details it's cool to work on lesser invasive methods. Any form of siphoning out the mass, without taking the tank apart, is better than any method that leaves it in place. Even water tuners benefit from constantly guiding it out and removing the invader as they work on suppression moves, allowing invader mass to stay in place is why people have ongoing cyano challenges, invader mass supports and protects itself and produces more mass. Any form of physical intervention is ideal, paired with any approach. Ours is simply the nuclear tank cleaning option.

It's not possible for a nano reef to be invaded by a matted invader if they're cleaned correctly, we show.

 

[SaltHound]

That's just one way of a few to work on cyano. The thread is detailed agreed, its fun to over analyze why those tanks don't die/lose invaders and nanos are easy to work with since they can be taken apart to clean out both the invader, and it's fuel.



There's no rush to implement the thread, I recommend considering those guys work examples over time and reading it all as time allows... you can put cleaning into action later and begin smaller safe increments at any time. Many times those reefers were moving tanks, so they had to disassemble. We just intercepted the rebuild step to force the new/old system to be cloud free.

Larger inaccessible tanks need no work ways to beat cyano, so water tuning and various additives became popular and do work. Ours is simply clean the tank a few times and be invader free via work done in a certain order of steps. Water tuning works for any aquarium, our way is just faster and thorough. Learn both ways is ok, have a toolbox of skills to employ

The sand rinse is a deep aquarium dive so until you feel comfortable repeating the safety details it's cool to work on lesser invasive methods. Any form of siphoning out the mass, without taking the tank apart, is better than any method that leaves it in place. Even water tuners benefit from constantly guiding it out and removing the invader as they work on suppression moves, allowing invader mass to stay in place is why people have ongoing cyano challenges, invader mass supports and protects itself and produces more mass. Any form of physical intervention is ideal, paired with any approach. Ours is simply the nuclear tank cleaning option.

I am also curious about the use of blackout. Does going lights out for a few days kill the bacteria or simply hibernate it? Would a combination of cleaning and blackout be effective?

 

[brandon429]

The truth regarding cyano/spirulina and even dino species invasions is that blackouts + all older methods we could search have documented success in threads. Peroxide, nutrient tuning, simply using a UV sterilizer, adding chemi clean or the myriad other $$ dosers, all have worked.

The key is finding the most success, the most replicated fix and then choosing it based on variables that suit your battle the best. One reason I practice only sandbed cleaning is because the other methods don't do a thing for detritus waste, and we're making the case in that big thread that detritus and too white light spectrum is the cause.
Other methods approach it from other angles, not any method is bad or good they're just generating different patterns of results at different time frames etc. The black out is nice because its safe to attempt, if it doesn't work, no harm. it was just a stormy few days on the reef then the sun came back

our thread is more useful for the absolutely fed-up/will never tolerate another loss or another excuse given to a passerby. When you want it just done, all nanos respond to rip cleans they've no other choice. ten other easier, and less work methods and more natural methods may very well work too, hard to say. I can only guarantee one way.

Having a sandbed in a reef means we house an invader and its feed, its always a challenge to rid a display sandbed of imbalance, many choose to wait it out months or years taking no action (die hard old school deep sand bedders despise actively cleaning a bed and killing 4 worms etc) depending on their end goals for the system.

 

[mcarroll]

Boyds Chemipure Elite. I also use Aquavitro Fuel once a week.

That's GFO (anti-phosphate) and carbon dosing (anti-nitrate), so stop both ASAP.

What would you recommend to increase both? I do feed very sparingly.

Feed the correct amount for your fish and other animals....so if needed, increase feeding on that basis. (Or keep less fish if you really need to feed less.)

In the short term, it's possible that adding some fertilizers for N and P might be the best way to go. Keep a minimum of 0.03 ppm PO4 for at least a while via testing and dosing just like you would for alkalinity. There's nothing wrong with exceeding .03 by as much as you want to, but .03 should be your minimum. (Calculate the dose based on test result plus the instructions on the bottle.)

If nothing is currently under stress, maybe just lay off the additives above for a few weeks and see if things improve.

 

[Reefland503]

Change your rodi filters and membrane! Also id santitize it by pulling all filters and membrane and run a small amount of bleach through it! I recently had a cyano issue and did just this and it we t away almost instantly after a few water changes! I really feel lile this is a huge overlooked cause for some reason!

 

[SaltHound]

Change your rodi filters and membrane! Also id santitize it by pulling all filters and membrane and run a small amount of bleach through it! I recently had a cyano issue and did just this and it we t away almost instantly after a few water changes! I really feel lile this is a huge overlooked cause for some reason!

I get all of my water from my LFS. Makes perfect sense that this can create an issue.

 

[SaltHound]

Little update on this ongoing situation. I got home from work yesterday and as always, the first thing I dad was walk over to my tank. The Cyano had lightened by about 50% and seemed to be peeling and lifting off the sand bed. I didn't do anything different. I am wondering if somehow there was enough imbalance to cause a bloom but not enough to sustain it. I am going to delay my plan to vacuum the sand bed and do my water change until next week (I did it last week), just to see what happens, and to see if this revolves itself on its own. Next week, when I do my water change and vacuum the bed it will be interesting to see if it returns.

 

[SaltHound]

The truth regarding cyano/spirulina and even dino species invasions is that blackouts + all older methods we could search have documented success in threads. Peroxide, nutrient tuning, simply using a UV sterilizer, adding chemi clean or the myriad other $$ dosers, all have worked.

The key is finding the most success, the most replicated fix and then choosing it based on variables that suit your battle the best. One reason I practice only sandbed cleaning is because the other methods don't do a thing for detritus waste, and we're making the case in that big thread that detritus and too white light spectrum is the cause.
Other methods approach it from other angles, not any method is bad or good they're just generating different patterns of results at different time frames etc. The black out is nice because its safe to attempt, if it doesn't work, no harm. it was just a stormy few days on the reef then the sun came back

our thread is more useful for the absolutely fed-up/will never tolerate another loss or another excuse given to a passerby. When you want it just done, all nanos respond to rip cleans they've no other choice. ten other easier, and less work methods and more natural methods may very well work too, hard to say. I can only guarantee one way.

Having a sandbed in a reef means we house an invader and its feed, its always a challenge to rid a display sandbed of imbalance, many choose to wait it out months or years taking no action (die hard old school deep sand bedders despise actively cleaning a bed and killing 4 worms etc) depending on their end goals for the system.

This is great information. I think I am going to do another water change and sanded vacuuming in an attempt to continue to eliminate more detritus. I have already lowered lighting intensity. I have added a small powerhead down low in the tank and the remaining cyano seems to be what I can only describe as peeling off the sand bed. It is about 60% lighter this morning than it was a few days ago when I made the original post. I have also begun to cycle the lighting on my little HOB refugium as opposed to 24 hour lighting which seems in just a few short days, to have increased chaeto growth. Thanks for all your help.

 

[SaltHound]

That's GFO (anti-phosphate) and carbon dosing (anti-nitrate), so stop both ASAP.



Feed the correct amount for your fish and other animals....so if needed, increase feeding on that basis. (Or keep less fish if you really need to feed less.)

In the short term, it's possible that adding some fertilizers for N and P might be the best way to go. Keep a minimum of 0.03 ppm PO4 for at least a while via testing and dosing just like you would for alkalinity. There's nothing wrong with exceeding .03 by as much as you want to, but .03 should be your minimum. (Calculate the dose based on test result plus the instructions on the bottle.)

If nothing is currently under stress, maybe just lay off the additives above for a few weeks and see if things improve.

Are you recommending no filtration at all? I also have a HOB refugium. Will that be enough? I also forgot to mention that I have been running a UV sterilizer since this problem began. I am also changing filter floss every other day.

 

[mcarroll]

Are you recommending no filtration at all? I also have a HOB refugium. Will that be enough? I also forgot to mention that I have been running a UV sterilizer since this problem began. I am also changing filter floss every other day.

Skimmer plus live rock should do it.

When did you start running UV, how old is the unit/bulb, and how is it installed?

What's in the refugium?

 

[SaltHound]

Skimmer plus live rock should do it.

When did you start running UV, how old is the unit/bulb, and how is it installed?

What's in the refugium?

UV unit is same age as the system, around 4 months but I didn't use it for the first month. I have chaeto over live rock rubble in the refugium which I added to the system last week.