Cycle Problem!!

[Rikki248]

Only thing I know will work which I did. Was daily water changes if you want to add.fish immediately. I added my clowns the first day I set up the tank and dosed seechems stability every day and also did little water changes and my tanks 3 months later is doing awesome. I have a few corals and multiple fish everyone is happy. Hope this helps and hopefully you have a successful journey in the hobby. Also I have seen people stating live sand/ rock I would most definitely look into this as it comes with so many beneficial bacteria. And don't get Liferock that's purple at the lfs it's not Coraline algae is paint and has no beneficial bacteria at all.

Thanks for your comment I appreciate it! I do have 60lbs CaribSea Fiji pink arag-alive sand and have already aquascaped 50lbs of CaribSea Liferock for my 55 gallon corner DT. But in the 20 gallon QT system I’m currently trying to get cycled won’t have any sand/rock. I do have Seachem stability and Seachem prime here that I will keep handy. I plan to get my DT set up within the next 2 weeks, so my 2 Storm clowns will be in the QT for observation until the DT is fully cycled.

 

[Rikki248]

6/18 Update: THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH for your suggestions and help!! I followed pretty much all of your suggestions combined and we are officially in the clear!

Salifert tests for Ammonia and Nitrate both gave me very different readings than API. According to Salifert I was at 0 Ammonia and 5 Nitrate this morning. I also picked up some Dr Tim’s and supplemented with that earlier in the week just in case.

i just picked up my Orange Storm AND decided to go with a Black Ice Bullet Hole instead of the 2nd Orange Storm for some contrast between the two. He was just too beautiful to pass up! The female will definitely be the Orange Storm, as she is bigger, which worked out perfectly because I did want a female storm!

They are currently drip acclimating before going into the QT! Thank you all again so so much, your advice and assistance is greatly appreciated! Here’s a pic of my two beauties!

 

[James5214]

They look awesome. Good luck!!

 

[brandon429]

Rikki would you help us please as we study ammonia test kit consistency


would you run both an api and salifert ammonia and post the results on your current system holding those clowns? We want to study how well two kits line up on a given stocked system we want to see the actual test vial + card backing if possible

 

[Rikki248]

Rikki would you help us please as we study ammonia test kit consistency


would you run both an api and salifert ammonia and post the results on your current system holding those clowns? We want to study how well two kits line up on a given stocked system we want to see the actual test vial + card backing if possible

Of course! I actually tagged you because I saw your responses in other threads and figured you might be interested! Here’s a pic I just took, if it’s not what you’re looking for just let me know and I’ll take different ones!

 

[brandon429]

That picture, and this thread might just get moved to very top spot in our false stuck cycle thread.

Before I proceed, let me ask you this based on that test comparison pic above because the colors look so contrasting... need your opinion before I slam the gavel down lol:

is it true that any new tester who runs those two kits on a given water sample will have polar opposite stances on tank readiness based on the kit they own?

Is api not sitting there before our eyes, over reporting ammonia, while salifert is as bone zero on the reading as possible?

Wouldn't api be causing panic, while any owner of that particular salifert kit would be eased and reassured?

Lastly, can you post a pic of the tank holding the fish we want to tie in the degree of surface area and dilution from your holding system into those readout ranges above thank you very much for posting this. I'm shocked at the disparity in reading, one would think two simple ammonia kits would line up

Nano-reef.com is currently having a panic fest on false stalls, and all we see in the recurring posts are slight green api + happy fish, every tank every time. Once we tie in your pics and alternate test comparisons maybe they can find peace too: api will cause unneeded panic is where I'm heading. Does your picture above not directly show this to be the case? Its reading .5 above, in everyone's book that's a legit stall

My threads state there are no stalls, only varying degrees of trained panic among forum peers... your pic surely helps explain how this may be occurring

 

[brandon429]

After I get your input over the disparity in readings, how this would affect any new test taker, I'm going to call in two folks to see this thread and those updates/ folks I've been discussing api with for a long time.

 

[Biglew11]

I suspect the difference in readings is the difference in what the kits measured. api total ammonia NH3 + NH4 and salifert I believe only free ammonia NH3. I believe the total ammonia readings is where people get hung up and omg I have ammonia . when in reality they have very little or no free NH3 ammonia.

edit: looking at the Salifert test card this appears to be a the total ammonia kit. is it possible to measure only NH3 with this kit?

it does appear salifert has a test for each.

 

[brandon429]

Fully agreed Lew, I did not know salifert has both options thats neat to see

even after approximating nh3 from the api reading, there’s no way it lines up with the nh3 or the nh4 from salifert. Api seems too high above


Rikki which version of salifert kit do you have?

 

[Biglew11]

it appears she has the total ammonia kit
NH3 vs NH3 + NH4

 

[brandon429]

Lew well done findings

So for my clarification is this two nh4 kits reading oppositely on the sample


I can’t wait to see the setup holding the clowns. Will be looking for water clarity, surface area amounts and positioning in the flow path and fish positioning in the pictures. Fish that are harmed by ammonia always show symptoms, every respiring animal in nature shows negative symptoms when kidneys cease working and ammonia burn begins (a tank that can’t control ammonia is like a failed set of kidneys for animals within)

They’ll be huddled somewhere or panting at the surface for air, the water will be cloudy as bacteria feed on the excess ammonia if the tank isn’t controlling ammonia per api



but if the pics are clear water, normal fish behavior in a common qt tank setup like everyone has, we could be dealing with yet another api misread by a long shot

 

[Biglew11]

Lew well done findings

So for my clarification is this two nh4 kits reading oppositely on the sample


I can’t wait to see the setup holding the clowns. Will be looking for water clarity, surface area amounts and positioning in the flow path and fish positioning in the pictures. Fish that are harmed by ammonia always show symptoms, every respiring animal in nature shows negative symptoms when kidneys cease working and ammonia burn begins (a tank that can’t control ammonia is like a failed set of kidneys for animals within)

They’ll be huddled somewhere or panting at the surface for air, the water will be cloudy as bacteria feed on the excess ammonia if the tank isn’t controlling ammonia per api



but if the pics are clear water, normal fish behavior in a common qt tank setup like everyone has, we could be dealing with yet another api misread by a long shot

the images in post 50 were taken off the internet just to show the difference between the two test cards.

looking at her image in post 45 it does appear that the Api and Salifert are both NH4 kits. hence the Question is it possible to read just NH3 with the Salifert NH4 kit? if her Salifert test kit is in fact reading total ammonia like the Api, this brings into question even more the results people get from an API reading.

edit: I've accepted API reading of .25 as total ammonia and the tan conversion as a tool to show that free ammonia was virtually non existent. but those two reading side by side give even more merit to API's false readings posts.

 

[Rikki248]

That picture, and this thread might just get moved to very top spot in our false stuck cycle thread.

Before I proceed, let me ask you this based on that test comparison pic above because the colors look so contrasting... need your opinion before I slam the gavel down lol:

is it true that any new tester who runs those two kits on a given water sample will have polar opposite stances on tank readiness based on the kit they own?

Is api not sitting there before our eyes, over reporting ammonia, while salifert is as bone zero on the reading as possible?

Wouldn't api be causing panic, while any owner of that particular salifert kit would be eased and reassured?

Lastly, can you post a pic of the tank holding the fish we want to tie in the degree of surface area and dilution from your holding system into those readout ranges above thank you very much for posting this. I'm shocked at the disparity in reading, one would think two simple ammonia kits would line up

Nano-reef.com is currently having a panic fest on false stalls, and all we see in the recurring posts are slight green api + happy fish, every tank every time. Once we tie in your pics and alternate test comparisons maybe they can find peace too: api will cause unneeded panic is where I'm heading. Does your picture above not directly show this to be the case? Its reading .5 above, in everyone's book that's a legit stall

My threads state there are no stalls, only varying degrees of trained panic among forum peers... your pic surely helps explain how this may be occurring

Hey @brandon429. Yes as you can tell from my emergency posts in this thread I was having a panic attack thinking my tank was not ready due to the ammonia readings I had received from the API test I was running daily. Not only am I a new tester but I am new to reefing 100%. Being my first tank ever, and a quarantine tank at that (wanted to QT for observation before I set up and cycle my DT) I was insanely concerned that after 7 days my ammonia was still reading such high levels. Luckily the wonderful members here calmed me down and led me in the right direction, as I had never even been TOLD about Salifert from my LFS (they only use API testing). All I knew is I only had 5 days to get my tank ready before my very expensive but worth it clowns arrived and I did not want to put them in harms way! Attached is a picture of my tank, including a HOB filter with 2 different types of sponges and a bag of ceramic ring media in the back chamber, a bio block in the tank, as well as pvc and 2 ceramic fake corals which I figured would provide good surface area. Yes they will always stay in the QT, only real corals in my DT. I hope this photo is helpful (it’s a bit cloudy, I took it right after I fed the clowns) please let me know if you need any more!

 

[brandon429]

Rikki I'm very impressed.

Really, that's more prep than we routinely see for new setups its apparent you are not in this with partial effort, well done!

The only thing that tank needs is guiding water changes. Not prime, no form of dosing for ammonia at all

Only water changes based on clouding is key. You did include plenty of surface area but a portion of it is sequestered outside the main contact zone in the middle of the tank, so wastewater takes more time to get to the rear chamber portions


If you'll do simple stepped up water changes to control water clarity you're on your way.

The display coming up will have the reverse, all the working surface area in the display contact zone. You'll never need to test for ammonia ever again when it's all set up in the display, don't test for it during display reefing it'll save you a big headache. Ammonia always self regulates fine when surface area is stacked in the middle of the display

In temporary setups like this one simply doing preemptive water changes matching temp and salinity will make it run perfect, change any time there's a cloud. Change as much % as you are willing to change.

 

[Rikki248]

I suspect the difference in readings is the difference in what the kits measured. api total ammonia NH3 + NH4 and salifert I believe only free ammonia NH3. I believe the total ammonia readings is where people get hung up and omg I have ammonia . when in reality they have very little or no free NH3 ammonia.

edit: looking at the Salifert test card this appears to be a the total ammonia kit. is it possible to measure only NH3 with this kit?

it does appear salifert has a test for each.

Dang! Yes it is a total ammonia kit, I had no idea there were different ones! However, total ammonia is also what the API kit reads, correct? So they would be the same test essentially with two different readings?

 

[brandon429]

Yes this is a very valid study in test kit discrepancy, impacts

 

[Rikki248]

Fully agreed Lew, I did not know salifert has both options thats neat to see

even after approximating nh3 from the api reading, there’s no way it lines up with the nh3 or the nh4 from salifert. Api seems too high above


Rikki which version of salifert kit do you have?

Yes I did order the total ammonia kit, I had no idea there was a way to test them separately. That’s actually the reason I purchased the ammonia alert badge that’s in my Tank photo.

 

[brandon429]

Rikki there really isn't a need to test here further, this will help relieve stress between two varying kit reads

You've used the right repeating degree of surface area that holding tanks for two clowns use in the disease forum.


You can manage by water clarity alone, no more testing needed here. Regulate clarity by water changes, ammonia is not secretly creeping up uncontrollably though it might over days time if extra feed is laying in the system, preemptive water changes are key to managing the qt

Clean is safe, cloudy means change water

 

[Rikki248]

Rikki I'm very impressed.

Really, that's more prep than we routinely see for new setups its apparent you are not in this with partial effort, well done!

The only thing that tank needs is guiding water changes. Not prime, no form of dosing for ammonia at all

Only water changes based on clouding is key. You did include plenty of surface area but a portion of it is sequestered outside the main contact zone in the middle of the tank, so wastewater takes more time to get to the rear chamber portions


If you'll do simple stepped up water changes to control water clarity you're on your way.

The display coming up will have the reverse, all the working surface area in the display contact zone. You'll never need to test for ammonia ever again when it's all set up in the display, don't test for it during display reefing it'll save you a big headache. Ammonia always self regulates fine when surface area is stacked in the middle of the display

In temporary setups like this one simply doing preemptive water changes matching temp and salinity will make it run perfect, change any time there's a cloud. Change as much % as you are willing to change.

I really appreciate that! I’ve been researching between BRS videos and reading threads and articles this forum for many months before I even made my first purchase to start the build. Now after 10 months I have all I need to get my DT up and running, but wanted to get the clowns in QT first to be observed while simultaneously cycling the DT so they could move right in once it was ready!

Good to know I don’t need Prime. I haven’t used it since Saturday morning when I did a big water change (before getting the clowns in there) so I will not use it again. I have a schedule to do 25% water changes weekly, should I consider larger? More frequent?

I did need to move the items into the middle of the tank because the wavemaker I purchased is I think a bit too strong for these little guys just yet. I pointed it to bank off the back wall (pointing towards the intake) to bring the “impact” down a bit. The clowns were getting slammed around doing gymnastics in the tank with the current/wavemaker pointed straight out. I have ordered a smaller one and will put that in as soon as I have it! For now, however, they are swimming all over the tank and looks like beginning to pair. I have not seen them even touch the floor of the tank, that would be a red flag for me for sure!

 

[Darklad]

I really appreciate that! I’ve been researching between BRS videos and reading threads and articles this forum for many months before I even made my first purchase to start the build. Now after 10 months I have all I need to get my DT up and running, but wanted to get the clowns in QT first to be observed while simultaneously cycling the DT so they could move right in once it was ready!

Good to know I don’t need Prime. I haven’t used it since Saturday morning when I did a big water change (before getting the clowns in there) so I will not use it again. I have a schedule to do 25% water changes weekly, should I consider larger? More frequent?

I did need to move the items into the middle of the tank because the wavemaker I purchased is I think a bit too strong for these little guys just yet. I pointed it to bank off the back wall (pointing towards the intake) to bring the “impact” down a bit. The clowns were getting slammed around doing gymnastics in the tank with the current/wavemaker pointed straight out. I have ordered a smaller one and will put that in as soon as I have it! For now, however, they are swimming all over the tank and looks like beginning to pair. I have not seen them even touch the floor of the tank, that would be a red flag for me for sure!

I did read the whole thread ^^ I cycled 5 tanks all with Microbacter 7 it's the best bacteria in bottle in my opinion for so many reasons. As for water changing I come from school that never do water changes and you going to have different opinions but 25% weekly water changes is quite a lot if your NO3 is low or have no corals.