Cycle: Worried if ammonia is too high?

[M3ntal]

Apologies if this has been covered before, I tried searching but couldn't get a conclusive answer. Trying not to be too impatient with the cycle, but I'm wondering if too much ammonia will be a problem during the cycling process? Or how much is "too much"?

Background: 40gallon breeder, dry marco rocks, 20lbs of washed fiji pink. Waited 24hrs and tested ammonia before adding Dr Tims. Started my cycle on 11/29 by adding Dr Tims and dosing to approx 2ppm of ammonia (or so I thought). It may have been testing error initially, but every time since I've only had higher and higher ammonia without adding anything beyond the initial dosing. It looks to be near 4ppm (or slightly higher) of ammonia according to the API test. I picked up a RedSea kit to verify and it is much darker than the 2ppm it shows, so I'm confident in the readings. After 6 days the ammonia has pretty much stayed at ~4ppm, nitrites at 0, and ph staying stable at 8.0.

I'm tempted to do a 25%-50% water change to try to get ammonia more in line with where the tests want it, but I'm wondering if it's even necessary? If I'm patient, will the bacteria develop and process the ammonia or would lowering the ammonia help speed the process along? I was expecting to see some change since the chart on Dr Tims shows adding ammonia every few days. I figured there is no reason to continue dosing if the current ammonia isn't being processed. Any input?

Posting a few test pictures to make sure I'm not interpreting these colors wrong.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

 

[brandon429]

Here’s what to do

add three pinches of finely ground up fish food to the tank with heater, circulation running and plenty of rocks in the display as it is above

let sit two weeks total. Change 100% of the water and you’re cycled.

here’s proof of how your tank will follow suit:

100% Water Change

So in my previous thread, I had an ammonia issue that was out of hand. As suggested, I did a 100% WC and now i’m wondering when I should start adding fish back. If anyone has suggestions, let me know!

www.reef2reef.com

the high ammonia now isn’t going to kill anything just do the above steps and you’re fine. It’s directly logged right there his ammonia like yours harmed nothing.

 

[Adrift]

Looks like you added to much ammonia perhaps. I’ve done a lot of reading on dr tims and a lot of people had the same issue. Once your ammonia is two high it stalls cycle and kills off the bacteria. I went with bio spira and added whole uncooked shrimp for 4 days. Then added two clowns.

 

[ReefRusty]

Dw mine is also sitting at 4ppm. For 2 days now. Let it run it course.

From some assistance I've recieved it wont stall and it will just take a little longer to process the ammonia. Only need to do a WC if your nitrates are really high. Just make sure your ammonia is at 0 when and if you do a WC.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Apologies if this has been covered before, I tried searching but couldn't get a conclusive answer. Trying not to be too impatient with the cycle, but I'm wondering if too much ammonia will be a problem during the cycling process? Or how much is "too much"?

Background: 40gallon breeder, dry marco rocks, 20lbs of washed fiji pink. Waited 24hrs and tested ammonia before adding Dr Tims. Started my cycle on 11/29 by adding Dr Tims and dosing to approx 2ppm of ammonia (or so I thought). It may have been testing error initially, but every time since I've only had higher and higher ammonia without adding anything beyond the initial dosing. It looks to be near 4ppm (or slightly higher) of ammonia according to the API test. I picked up a RedSea kit to verify and it is much darker than the 2ppm it shows, so I'm confident in the readings. After 6 days the ammonia has pretty much stayed at ~4ppm, nitrites at 0, and ph staying stable at 8.0.

I'm tempted to do a 25%-50% water change to try to get ammonia more in line with where the tests want it, but I'm wondering if it's even necessary? If I'm patient, will the bacteria develop and process the ammonia or would lowering the ammonia help speed the process along? I was expecting to see some change since the chart on Dr Tims shows adding ammonia every few days. I figured there is no reason to continue dosing if the current ammonia isn't being processed. Any input?

Posting a few test pictures to make sure I'm not interpreting these colors wrong.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

You're gonna get so many contradictory answers on this.

I'd do a 50-75% water change so that you have measurable results.

Then just add a pinch of food to the tank and wait it out.

Tanks take a while to cycle, and despite all the claims by the Bottled Bacteria makers, testing every day doesn't make it happen any faster.

Regards
Graham.

 

[brandon429]

There may be contradictory answers agreed, but the link above isn’t in doubt and it’ll be the only one we see for a direct example of what to do, and how this will turn out.


I have another 26 page thread of more same examples, but if that one above doesn’t convince and we opt for no link examples as the preferred method, then the selection to be stalled has been made despite the ability to select to be unstalled in two weeks as shown.

directly above, clickable, readable, is the same issue fixed so easily. dont fall into the stalled cycle loop, or you’ll be buying multiple bottles of bacteria which is what that advice is designed to prompt.

 

[M3ntal]

Here’s what to do

add three pinches of finely ground up fish food to the tank with heater, circulation running and plenty of rocks in the display as it is above

let sit two weeks total. Change 100% of the water and you’re cycled.

here’s proof of how your tank will follow suit:

100% Water Change

So in my previous thread, I had an ammonia issue that was out of hand. As suggested, I did a 100% WC and now i’m wondering when I should start adding fish back. If anyone has suggestions, let me know!

www.reef2reef.com

the high ammonia now isn’t going to kill anything just do the above steps and you’re fine. It’s directly logged right there his ammonia like yours harmed nothing.

Thanks for the help! I read through that thread and still have a few questions. I started with Dr. Tim's bacteria initially, but have not seen any drop in phosphates, or rise in nitrites according to either test. How will adding food (which should raise phosphates more as it decomposes) help? I've had the heater set to about 80deg, and circulation running the whole time.

As far as the thread from Jack, it seemed like in his first thread he noticed his bacteria processing the ammonia, but it was still staying high. In that thread he mentioned he over-dosed but he mentioned seeing nitrites and nitrates, something I haven't seen yet with this cycle. He noted that he was doing a fishless cycle, then added a damsel and it spiked. I'm still 100% fishless and won't dare put a fish in until the tank is under control. If I had seen some movement in terms of processing I wouldn't be as unsure as I am. I planned to just wait it out, but I don't want to be waiting for a day that will never come.

Thanks again for all the help! I'll try to document changes as well as I can to be used as an aid to the first thread for anyone else having issues. Attaching a tank picture to give people an idea on surface area in the tank.

 

[brandon429]

Most people want to go back and forth until they get support they’re stalled. I wont. We did not factor nitrite there, or phosphate, it was a wait plus a water change. The fish food provides carbon to boost up the bac per Dr Reefs bottle bac study, you’re getting advice directly from hundreds of cycles fixed but in the end people commonly won’t listen and they select to be stalled because the fear based cycle training is too strong.

His ammonia didn’t spike back, that’s why all his stuff lived. These are the cheapest test kits you could possibly own, they’re not digital ammonia kits, spikes reported aren’t real they’re test issues from the cheapest kits on file, so to avoid confusion we made another way. when the folks who sell bottle bac write the rules on stalls, thousands of extra bottles of bac are sold.

here’s the 26 more pages of tanks like yours fixed, we specifically don’t use single point ammonia testing as above because it misleads. Your tank will follow suit to all these pages if you fish food / two weeks/ change water and select a disease protocol before stocking

 

[M3ntal]

You're gonna get so many contradictory answers on this.

I'd do a 50-75% water change so that you have measurable results.

Then just add a pinch of food to the tank and wait it out.

Tanks take a while to cycle, and despite all the claims by the Bottled Bacteria makers, testing every day doesn't make it happen any faster.

Regards
Graham.

This was kind of my plan, albeit without the fish food since I planned to just re-dose small amounts of ammonia and re-test until at the desired ppm then wait to see it processed. Since it's been about a week since adding that bacteria, I won't need to worry about what is suspended in the water column when I do a WC will I? I figured by now it would have time to settle on substrate or rocks. If advised I can add more bacteria, but I don't think it will benefit me much from what I've read, but feel free to correct that if it's wrong!

 

[brandon429]

How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle

Updated Cycling Science in Action This is a testless reef tank cycling thread, the only one from any board. If you ever had trouble with reef tank cycling in the past, you won't any longer after working some jobs with us. chances are you are using/about to use a method of reef tank cycling...

www.reef2reef.com

if your tank follows the rules of that thread, you get the outcome documented. Your bacteria aren’t dead, but that depends on which system to cycle you use, we aren’t trying to sell you things there. We assign specific start dates, yours is dec 20th if you add fish food now.

 

[M3ntal]

Most people want to go back and forth until they get support they’re stalled. I wont. We did not factor nitrite there, or phosphate, it was a wait plus a water change. The fish food provides carbon to boost up the bac per Dr Reefs bottle bac study, you’re getting advice directly from hundreds of cycles fixed but in the end people commonly won’t listen and they select to be stalled because the fear based cycle training is too strong.


if you feel that thread which turned into a reef doesn’t apply, many folks here will help your stall and you can buy more bacteria easily its only seven bucks. His ammonia didn’t spike back, that’s why all his stuff lived. These are the cheapest test kits you could possibly own, they’re not digital ammonia kits, so to avoid confusion we made another way.

This was the part I was missing, I wasn't aware of the benefit that the food was providing carbon to benefit the bacteria. So a WC is not necessary even to get the ammonia to a more "readable" level between both the API and RedSea kits? I'm perfectly fine with adding food and waiting if necessary.

So I make sure I'm understanding this: Add food, wait until you see the ammonia processing, 100% WC, and then if I feel it's necessary I can do another ammonia processing period (whether that be with food or dosing) just to ensure that process is completing within 24hrs?

 

[brandon429]

In the 100% water change thread the most important outcome for you to see was how after the water change the system moved ammonia in a three-part picture set. Above you have a one part picture set too soon, before the carbon + two weeks wait, that’s the issue.


after a cycle, ammonia does not run zero this is why everyone on api reports .25 in running reefs. That may seem like a re spike but it’s not

If you owned seneye ammonia your entire cycle approach would be changed in eye opening ways, these tests above have a days long lag phase, up to ten days is shown in that thread above, before they barely show a downward trend. Your test kits selected will mislead you if you use the common cycling rules, and more bottle bac will be bought. but in the unstall thread nobody needed new bacteria. Nobody missed the start date assigned safely, that’s how powerful a 10-14 day wait really is

 

[M3ntal]

In the 100% water change thread the most important outcome for you to see was how after the water change the system moved ammonia in a three-part picture set. Above you have a one part picture set too soon, before the carbon + two weeks wait, that’s the issue.

This makes sense, and gives me a good starting point for the progression. I'll add some food tonight and continue to update over the next few weeks and give a more complete picture set. I assume it's still beneficial to test daily? Or is this not as much of a concern since there are no livestock? If testing every 2-3 days (or longer) is sufficient then I may reduce the amount I test until adding livestock.

I'll keep this thread updated and provide more picture samples as the "cycle" progresses. I'll post both API and RedSea results next to each other. I really appreciate your patience and all the help you bring to the forum!

 

[M3ntal]

Figured I have nothing to lose waiting it out except a few weeks time which is really no big deal in the grand scheme of this hobby. Ground up some pellets of omega one and added it to the tank with flow shut off. After it settled on the floor I turned flow back on. Now I wait.

Tested again today with no real change in color. Maybe slightly darker but these were under better lighting. I did a nitrate test for giggles and saw what looked like trace amounts of nitrates. Somewhere around 5ppm or less. I did a test with the RedSea kit and saw similar results around 2ppm. I'm hopeful it's a good sign, but hesitant as something that low I feel could be just an error in the way the test reads. It's also odd since I've never seen nitrites rise at all, so I'm wondering if it's just inaccuracy?

Also spoke with my father who used to deal heavily with water chemistry and he gave me a few interesting ideas for input. He suggested testing my RODI water, and also running one test with a diluted sample using distilled water to see how it effects the test. Testing the RODI water gives me a baseline that will be good to use in future results, and diluting the sample may help get it into a more readable range. I'm not sure why I didn't think of doing this earlier. He mentioned since they were such water soluble compounds, it may be getting through the RODI system. From the looks of things things that shouldn't be a concern, but it was good to confirm any suspicions. As far as diluting the sample, it basically told me what I already knew, but in half. (go figure!) But it was a good experiment to run. I read it as somewhere between 2-4 rather than 4-8, which makes sense based on the dilution.

Onto the pictures. Starting with the water tests for today, looks slightly darker, but lighting was improved for this picture vs yesterday. Then baseline of RODI, and finally the diluted sample using API reagents.

Mostly posting all this for thread posterity.

 

[brandon429]

Ro di water is expected to be zero because it’s potable that has no context in a system that runs in the hundredths or thousandths ppm at all times



to baseline your kit, run it on a known cycled reef tank. Not with known zero water, your reef is not going to run zero when it’s cycled


Also in continuance with the 26 page cycling thread made solely of tanks like yours, page one post #2 first link, even when your cycle is done api is going to lag days behind before it shows the drop. You’re using cheap ultra cheap test kits and there’s no way around it with the blast of ammonia given, that they can’t deal with. Run the cycle exactly as mentioned with the water change and you’ll be set. The carbon from the fish food is going to help for sure.


no matter what your test kit says on the actionable date, your cycle will be ready after the full water change.

 

[brandon429]

Where your kits would have worked better is if you dosed .5 ppm max at the start but I know old rules demand 2 ppm, the benefit they get from telling everyone to dose well above what these kits can handle is ten thousand people feel their cycle is stuck and buy more bacteria, the old rules are solely designed to cause you doubt and get more cash

 

[M3ntal]

Where your kits would have worked better is if you dosed .5 ppm max at the start but I know old rules demand 2 ppm, the benefit they get from telling everyone to dose well above what these kits can handle is ten thousand people feel their cycle is stuck and buy more bacteria, the old rules are solely designed to cause you doubt and get more cash

Makes sense! I plan on riding it out and testing a little less frequently until closer to the end of the cycle. I'll probably do a full WC at the end of the cycle, re-test and dose to .5ppm or so and make sure it is processed within 24hrs, then start looking for livestock. Closer to the end of the cycle I'll check back in and see where I'm at.

Thanks a ton!

 

[M3ntal]

As much as I wanted to put the tank in the back of my mind and let it do it's thing, I've still been testing every day. BUT! There has been measured progress. Testing the 8th, 9th, and 10th saw a visible change in nitrites! To me this is confirmation that the cycle has not stalled and is still continuing to progress. This would be right in line with what most things I've read have said, saying it will take around 10 days or so for nitrites to start developing. Needless to say I'm much less stressed.

Here's the 3 day picture set showing 0ppm, 0.25ppm and 0.5ppm progression pretty clearly. I haven't completely lost faith in the color change kits! Tested nitrates on the first day, but it was too close to be discernable between 0 and 5ppm so I haven't bothered photographing it the last few days.

 

[M3ntal]

Closing in on the final days of the cycle. Finished up the tank setup and got my cable management done. I'm pretty satisfied with it. Everything has a drip loop and I tried to keep things as tidy as possible. Temp is set high to help the bacteria, it will be lowered when I do the 100% WC.

 

[M3ntal]

Falling right in line with what brandon previously stated, my API kit has been reading .25 for 2-3 days now. Have a fresh 40g of saltwater mixing, tomorrow the water is getting changed. Would you advise re-dosing ammonia to make sure the tank processes it within 24hrs? Or should I just have faith that the cycle has completed?