Cycling advice needed

[LukeyB]

Sorry for yet another thread on this, but I'm really not sure best way to proceed.

Water was added to aquarium 14 days ago. Tank is bare bottom with minimal rock in the display but I do have extra rock and bio bricks in the sump. The rock I'm using is secondhand actual live rock that I bleach cured, rinsed and fully dried prior to use.

On day 1 I dosed a full bottle of Dr Tim's. On day 2 I did 2 drops per gallon of Ammonium Chloride (2ppm). I followed all the instructions of no filter sock, no skimmer etc.

Since then I was dosing Quantum 'Stabilty' for the first 7 days (LFS told me it would help to provide extra bacteria) but stopped as I was concerned it was maybe adding extra ammonia too. I've also twice done a very small pinch ghost feed with flake, as I read the carbon can help to kick start things.

I've been testing everyday and for ammonia (using Api kit) it has constantly been at at somewhere inbetween 2ppm and 4ppm, but no sign of it coming down. Nitrates have increased from 0 to 5ppm in the first few days, and then have since been steady at that level since day 7. I've not tested nitrites.

Has my cycle stalled? Should I start doing some water changes? Should I try adding some more Dr. Tims bacteria?

I'm also considering abandoning the bare bottom idea and putting in some sand so that there there is more surface area for the bacteria to populate.

One other thing, I did have cloudy water for a few days (days 7-12) which I assumed was some kind of bacteria bloom, but it has now cleared up and is crystal clear.

 

[Troylee]

Should be cycled and ready to go.. I’d assume you’re using api test kits??? You can start adding some small fish and go slow “maybe a pair of clowns” or something to start.

 

[LukeyB]

Should be cycled and ready to go.. I’d assume you’re using api test kits??? You can start adding some small fish and go slow “maybe a pair of clowns” or something to start.

Yes API kit. Should I worry about the high reading? Do some water changes to bring it down? Or just put it down to issues with the API kit and not worry.

 

[Troylee]

Yes API kit. Should I worry about the high reading? Do some water changes to bring it down? Or just put it down to issues with the API kit and not worry.

Nah you’re good to go.. no reason to change water unless your nitrates are high which they’re not.. it’s safe to throw away your api test kit now and get some salifert or Hannah checkers for nitrate, po4, cal, alk, mag… lol

 

[moreef]

Wait you still have ammonia? If so it’s not cycled. Would test nitrites.

 

[brandon429]

The only way to discern readiness here is to choose between old vs new cycling science rules

Old= not ready
New=ready because: you're past day ten on any cycling charts ammonia line where it's handled and doesn't come back up, you're using nh4 kits which we expect to see not zero and ammonia is the only parameter that matters from the chart (search any common api ammonia reading issue thread for what low level readings mean) and you've been ghost feeding along with the ammonia given, because Dr. Reef's + studies of this bacteria in the chemistry forum shows it done by day ten, and because that's a lot of surface area already in the flow path

You're past cycling and into fish disease prevention choices
Consider the first two pages of help threads in the disease forum to pick up a pattern of how up approach initial stocking without soon becoming one of the help threads

 

[Troylee]

Wait you still have ammonia? If so it’s not cycled. Would test nitrites.

He doesn’t have nitrites because his nitrates aren’t off the charts.. nitrite is harmless in marine fish anyways..

 

[exnisstech]

^^^ This
I don't even own a nitrite or ammonia kit. If nitrates are present cycle is good. Start slowly adding stock

Wait you still have ammonia? If so it’s not cycled. Would test nitrites.

 

[jda]

As long as you understand that your tank is nowhere near cycled (as in done), then you are OK to add to some fish. Your tank is cycling, but past the point where you should be able to handle fish waste, so be smart and patient with your additions and do not overfeed them. Once you gets some fish in there, their gut bacteria will help you along even further.

It will take quite some time for your tank to be dynamic enough to handle any and every whim that you might want to throw at it.

 

[brandon429]

if he wasn't cycled, then fish added would die due to being in an uncycled tank. your statement implies a cliffhanger consequence that wasn't stated/defined/because you don't know what it would be but just wanted to interject some old cycling science fear.

whats the consequence if he added six corals and two fish that all came from a fallow + observed system? the consequence is he'd be off and reefing, utilizing the power of bottle bac he's paid for to reef quicker than had he not.

 

[moreef]

If you have ammonia in the tank it ain’t cycled fully. Do whatever you want with livestock. Will they be ok? Probably I don’t know. Nothing good happens fast so why rush Mother Nature lol.

 

[Troylee]

If you have ammonia in the tank it ain’t cycled fully. Do whatever you want with livestock. Will they be ok? Probably I don’t know. Nothing good happens fast so why rush Mother Nature lol.

Api tests are proven to be faulty and show ammonia when there isn’t any present.

 

[moreef]

Api tests are proven to be faulty and show ammonia when there isn’t any present.

Api tests are proven to be faulty and show ammonia when there isn’t any present.

They worked fine for me when cycling. I agree that’s all they are really good for and after cycle use better test kits. I haven’t cycled tank in a while so excuse me if I’m giving bad advice. I just always went by the old nitrogen cycle ammonia > Nitrite > Nitrate > ammonia zero good to go system.

 

[Troylee]

They worked fine for me when cycling. I agree that’s all they are really good for and after cycle use better test kits. I haven’t cycled tank in a while so excuse me if I’m giving bad advice. I just always went by the old nitrogen cycle ammonia > Nitrite > Nitrate > ammonia zero good to go system.

Exactly how it works… if he’s showing nitrates then the cycle has went through it phases.. if he had nitrite it would show a crazy off the chart reading of nitrates “false reading” , being that his is 5 no3 he’s good to go.

 

[winemanta]

I noticed in your original post you bleached the dry rock and let it air dry. Dry rock is very porous and when introduced in the tank and filled with water, it's possible you were starting with some chlorine in the tank. Timing is everything. If you added the bacteria and ammonia before the chlorine was neutralized (usually within 24 hours of running), it's possible you could have destroyed some of the bacteria. I'm not saying this happened, but it's possible. Obviously, with the presence of nitrates, you have bacteria in there, but it appears to be taking longer to convert all of the ammonia to nitrates which suggest your colony is growing slower or, as many would agree, your API test kit is useless. I agree with moreef. You can add some livestock, but I would watch for difficulty breathing and I certainly wouldn't put a prized and expensive fish in the tank to start. Go slow. You can always add more bacteria - It certainly won't hurt anything. I usually use microbactr 7 when dosing my tanks. You can add the bacteria and try a couple of small fish in the tank. I usually recommend 2-3 small fish when first starting. If one passes, but the other two thrive, then you had one that died due to something other than your tank environment. If you lose all 3, then there may be a problem with your setup. After the first introduction wait 2-4 weeks before adding more fish to give your bacteria colony enough time to reproduce and catch up to the bioload in the tank. I hope this is helpful.

 

[brandon429]

Lukey, prepare to be misdirected right back into cycling fear we previously had you out of lol it's like quicksand. send a private message if you want to/to get out of the quicksand that is currently up past the knees lol

updated cycling science has about 200 pages of work it can show you in chat (or can be searched free and quickly) for tanks exactly like this that are just fine, every time.

that little fear statement from JDA was all that was needed to tip the balance here away from fish disease preps and into cycling fear = old cycling science. there was no consequence coming to you other than common fish diseases from adding in unprepped fish. the cycle wasn't the issue, there are like nine searchable cycle study threads out there for Dr. Tim's bacteria on day +10 and you can see from the studies none of the fear stated here pans out. Troy had it right, based on literally hundreds of searchable work threads.

 

[moreef]

I noticed in your original post you bleached the dry rock and let it air dry. Dry rock is very porous and when introduced in the tank and filled with water, it's possible you were starting with some chlorine in the tank. Timing is everything. If you added the bacteria and ammonia before the chlorine was neutralized (usually within 24 hours of running), it's possible you could have destroyed some of the bacteria. I'm not saying this happened, but it's possible. Obviously, with the presence of nitrates, you have bacteria in there, but it appears to be taking longer to convert all of the ammonia to nitrates which suggest your colony is growing slower or, as many would agree, your API test kit is useless. I agree with moreef. You can add some livestock, but I would watch for difficulty breathing and I certainly wouldn't put a prized and expensive fish in the tank to start. Go slow. You can always add more bacteria - It certainly won't hurt anything. I usually use microbactr 7 when dosing my tanks. You can add the bacteria and try a couple of small fish in the tank. I usually recommend 2-3 small fish when first starting. If one passes, but the other two thrive, then you had one that died due to something other than your tank environment. If you lose all 3, then there may be a problem with your setup. After the first introduction wait 2-4 weeks before adding more fish to give your bacteria colony enough time to reproduce and catch up to the bioload in the tank. I hope this is helpful.

Very good point about the bleached rock I missed that. Never knew you could bleach rock always thought acid was way to go.

Btw op your rock scape is amazing

 

[paragrouper]

If you haven’t sorted this out by now, there are a number of methods to cycle a tank and there are a myriad of opinions on each. @Troylee and @brandon429 provided advice specific to the method you are using And I would recommend you go with it.

as suggested above, do Some research so you are properly prepared for your new inhabitants, but you can start to slowly stock your tank.

 

[brandon429]

well now that we're into stalled cycle hashing let's see the ammonia test kit reading in clear light

we don't expect nh4 readings to be zero, that's the heart of every stalled cycle thread + old cycling science rules stating it has to be zero to be not-stalled. this sets the stage for thirty years of cycling doubt we were making headway on overcoming...

so let's see the kit reading. nh3 conversion will require us imagining the actual reading about to be shown but ten times less...from that guesstimate we can see if the test is wildly off base or not

 

[jda]

You are probably fine. Just go slow and be smart. Your tank can likely handle some fish waste - no more... yet If you add a ton of fish, you will likely have issues. If you drop in too much food, you will likely have issues. Once the tank has completed more of the cycle a few months from now, then you will not likely ever have issues with any of these things. This is not fear.

Anybody selling you absolutism in this hobby should be ignored. There are always risks, outliers and exceptions. Better to understand where you are at and what could happen so that you can spot some if you encounter any.

Bleach on rock kills organics - if they were already dead, then it does not do much. Acid on rocks dissolves the outer layer and anything bound to the aragonite like copper, phosphates and other metals are released.

If you have not already, get that skimmer running. Even if you set it to pull no waste, it is critical to gas exchange and more stable pH.

For some more background, Brandon defines cycled at having a start of bacteria to handle some fish waste - the minimum to start out. Science defines it in other ways including a dynamic ecosystem to handle sudden onset of quantity and also completing the cycle (a circle) back to removal of nitrogen from your tank. He will not change his definition to be more what science says, so you have to understand where he is coming from. He is likely right, like everybody else, that the tank can handle some fish, but it is not cycled. When you read other things in other places, you have to take his advice and translate it.

The real cycle looks something like this - this is still pretty basic, but it works well enough. What you have developed is in the small red circles. When you develop more of what you have to make the whole arrow, then you are closer to being cycled. When you develop the other lines to export no3, then you are fully cycles - you can get ride of nitrate with more than just plants. You will also get more decomposers than heterotrophic bacteria and some things will just grab nitrogen from the ammonia and keep it forever, or until they die and decompose. This is what science calls the real nitrogen cycle - old or new science, it is all the same.