Cycling HIGH Nitrites

thenanoreefkeeper

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Hi All! This is my first go at this hobby and I have started a cycle 8 days ago using Dr Tims One and Only, and dosed ammonia in my 24g nano with live sand and dry rock. Readings started off fine, but I believe I made the mistake of dosing ammonia to 2ppm whenever my ammonia dropped below 1, rather than waiting for my ammonia AND Nirtrites to drop. Now my nitrites are maxed at 5 on my API kit. I emailed Dr Tims supports and they recommended a 33% WC, which I did last night. This morning my readings were the following:

Ammonia: .25ppm
Nirtite: Maxed @ 5ppm still (although the color difference on the card between 2 and 5 is so small its very hard to tell)
Nitrates: 20-30ppm

Where do you guys think I should go from here? I am willing to wait, but Dr Tims says that high nitrites can stall a cycle so I want to make sure I am being as efficient as I can be.

Thanks all!
 
Its completely fine, just let it go, stop dosing ammonia. Cycles cannot stall (@brandon429 ). Dont do any w/cs. If you are at 2-5ppm NO2 you are perfect, I cycled a tank with much higher.

IME the step from NO2 to NO3 takes a little longer, just be patient.
 
Its completely fine, just let it go, stop dosing ammonia. Cycles cannot stall (@brandon429 ). Dont do any w/cs. If you are at 2-5ppm NO2 you are perfect, I cycled a tank with much higher.

IME the step from NO2 to NO3 takes a little longer, just be patient.
Thanks for the info...BUT...I already did a water change as recommended by Dr Tims. Nitrites still at the 5ppm, though. Did I screw it all up? Or just let it ride from here?

Thanks!
 
Hi All! This is my first go at this hobby and I have started a cycle 8 days ago using Dr Tims One and Only, and dosed ammonia in my 24g nano with live sand and dry rock. Readings started off fine, but I believe I made the mistake of dosing ammonia to 2ppm whenever my ammonia dropped below 1, rather than waiting for my ammonia AND Nirtrites to drop. Now my nitrites are maxed at 5 on my API kit. I emailed Dr Tims supports and they recommended a 33% WC, which I did last night. This morning my readings were the following:

Ammonia: .25ppm
Nirtite: Maxed @ 5ppm still (although the color difference on the card between 2 and 5 is so small its very hard to tell)
Nitrates: 20-30ppm

Where do you guys think I should go from here? I am willing to wait, but Dr Tims says that high nitrites can stall a cycle so I want to make sure I am being as efficient as I can be.

Thanks all!

Don’t even bother testing nitrates until nitrites are gone. Presence of nitrites will throw any nitrate test kit off by a huge margin.

I’d also be patient, every tank cycles and you didn’t screw anything up.
 
Thanks for the info...BUT...I already did a water change as recommended by Dr Tims. Nitrites still at the 5ppm, though. Did I screw it all up? Or just let it ride from here?

Thanks!

You didnt screw it up. Just be patient. IME you will be ready in 7 days.
 
You didnt screw it up. Just be patient. IME you will be ready in 7 days.
Solid. Not in a rush, just would rather not waist time lol
Don’t even bother testing nitrates until nitrites are gone. Presence of nitrites will throw any nitrate test kit off by a huge margin.

I’d also be patient, every tank cycles and you didn’t screw anything up.
Noted! Thanks for the tip.
 
Its completely fine, just let it go, stop dosing ammonia. Cycles cannot stall (@brandon429 ). Dont do any w/cs. If you are at 2-5ppm NO2 you are perfect, I cycled a tank with much higher.

IME the step from NO2 to NO3 takes a little longer, just be patient.
At what Nitrite level should I dose ammonia again to check if I can clear 2ppm in 24h? when it hits zero?
 
Just yesterday there was a thread asking in the chem forum how long after dosing bottle bac until someone can start. 7 days is winning the poll are we at 9 here


info changes really fast in the hobby. The absolute truth is, nitrite is not harmful in reefs its harmful in freshwater, so if we want nitrite at zero then wait longer
that being said, argon gas is also present in our air but it’s of neutral impact, the reason everyone is voting 7 days is because our hobby has been doing fish in cycling for ten years it’s a an easy pattern to locate w searches. If nitrite is caught up or not doesn’t matter to all the reefs at a marine aquarium convention, they all start on time regardless.

nitrite doesn’t factor in a cycle. The new information is simply replacing dr tims information, not a big deal as the two systems will play out in forums and be measured by thousands, we‘ll see :)

whatever your plans for the reef are, you can start, change most of your water out, to export algae feed nitrogen / bright lights and algae phase is coming. Two tips


don’t permit uglies phase, lift out your rocks and clean them outside the tank of disgusting growths.

before adding fish, read first three pages of the fish disease forum here and decide solely from that info how you are going to prepare against losing all fish within six months to velvet and crypto.
6D64FF4C-D589-4F27-A5C9-F58609AB1292.jpeg
 
Just yesterday there was a thread asking in the chem forum how long after dosing bottle bac until someone can start. 7 days is winning the poll are we at 9 here


info changes really fast in the hobby. The absolute truth is, nitrite is not harmful in reefs its harmful in freshwater, so if we want nitrite at zero then wait longer
that being said, argon gas is also present in our air but it’s of neutral impact, the reason everyone is voting 7 days is because our hobby has been doing fish in cycling for ten years it’s a an easy pattern to locate w searches. If nitrite is caught up or not doesn’t matter to all the reefs at a marine aquarium convention, they all start on time regardless.

nitrite doesn’t factor in a cycle. The new information is simply replacing dr tims information, not a big deal as the two systems will play out in forums and be measured by thousands, we‘ll see :)

whatever your plans for the reef are, you can start, change most of your water out, to export algae feed nitrogen / bright lights and algae phase is coming. Two tips


don’t permit uglies phase, lift out your rocks and clean them outside the tank of disgusting growths.

before adding fish, read first three pages of the fish disease forum here and decide solely from that info how you are going to prepare against losing all fish within six months to velvet and crypto.
6D64FF4C-D589-4F27-A5C9-F58609AB1292.jpeg
Yeah I have read that as well. I will admit, the forums have a lot of conflicting advice lol As a newbie it is a bit overwhelming.

Thats an old myth. Do not dose ammonia again.
Oh really? I didnt know that. Do I not have to be able to process 2 ppm ammonia in 24 hours to consider the tank to be fish ready?
 
I´m sorry I´m late in but it took some time to type this. It can be seen as I repeat what other have said - but because I put time to try to explain my point of view - i press the send button :)

What´s happen is that you have stalled the nitrification cycle just before the second phase. A complete nitrification cycle is a two step reaction that will be seamless when you once have established both steps. First step is that rather many different microorganism convert NH3/NH4 into NO2 It mostly autotrophic bacteria lika nitrosomonas but also another type of microorganisms - the archaea´s is know to have these abilities. This step will normally be established during a few days.
The second step is the conversion of NO2 into NO3. This conversions is done by truly autotrophic bacteria - mainly from the nitrobacter and nitrospira genus. In certain circumstances it is known that the process can stall here - NH3/NH4 is steady converted into NO2 but the conversion of NO2 into NO3 is slow or none. In freshwater - NO2 is deadly for fish but in saltwater it is not taken up into the fish and therefore not as toxic.

IMO - this situation with a stalled nitrification cycle just before the second step happens when a total clean aquarium is started with adding higher amount of NH3/NH4 - a fishless cycle and there is not enough of inorganic P for the growth of the second stage bacteria. There is studies that indicate that high NH3/NH4 concentration by itself can slow down the actions of the second step.With a stalled nitrification cycle I mean that NH3/NH4 will be steady processed into NO2 but a low amount (or non) of NO2 will be converted into NO3. I put in bold here because I know that the thread will be filled up of statements that a stalled nitrification cycle is a hoax. The first step will not stall - ammonia will still be processed but the second step can stall and nitrite will be build up.

Because I normally start with a fish where I manage the NH3/NH4 excretion with help of my feeding regime (see here) I have never (since I start with that method) experienced any stalling at the second step.

But in the old days I have experienced it and I normally just keep on adding nitrification bacteria and wait. Some people have experienced a quick start of the second step when they get some inorganic P (PO4 - phosphate) in the water if it had stall. My experiences is also that you can never use dilution as a problem solver with nitrite. I normally do not do any WC.

Some people say that you can add fish in spite of the nitrite level in saltwater - and yes you can in most cases but personally - I do not add fish or other animals if I read high NO2 levels. Now when you are in this situation - just wait but you can speed it up a little with help of adding nitrification bacteria (on a daily basis) and a very, very small amount of frozen food - just a very, very small pinch in order to get in some phosphate for the autotrophic nitrification bacterias growth. When it kick in - it goes fast. I once read around 3 ppm NO2 in the morning and in the evening it was gone.

To the measurements. In my experiences - most total ammonia tests often show 0.25 ppm even if the total ammonia is 0. Total ammonia include NH3 and NH4 and the ratio between them is depended of the pH. It is important - because it is the gas - ammoniac - NH3 that is toxic - the ion - ammonium - NH4 is non toxic. In pH of 8 and 25 degree C - around 5% is in the toxic form NH3. If your API test read 0.25 -> only 0.0125 ppm is in the toxic for. Att pH 8.5 it is 15 % and around 0,0375 ppm of the toxic form. Non of these concentrations is acute toxic. so even if it is a real reading - 0.25 ppm total ammonia (as in many tests) is of no concern

As other have pointed out - to try to analyze NO3 if NO2 is present is meaningless - you will have a huge false reading. All NO3 test I know of is based on three steps - first - convert all NO3 into NO2 - second - read NO2 - third convert the colour after a certain time into NO3 again (The chart do that) If nitrite (NO2) is present in the samples - you get a wrong reading. Often it is between 50 to 100 times higher than the real NO3 value.

Do not add any more NH3/NH4 - that step is already working - you need it to work once - after that it is established and will work for most time. However - add more nitrite oxidizing bacteria like nitrospira and make it possible for them to grow. A very good idea in the start is to use a foam filter like the one populare in freshwater for the first weeks

Sincerely Lasse
 
on the ammonia test question above at 2 ppm, the rule is you need to be able to move ammonia discernibly down by next day, doesn't have to be zero. if it can move any ammonia, it moves all ammonia that's the trick that veers us away from typical cycling rules and into 2020 where all convention reefs start on time without variation. if your tank can move ammonia down overnite, it fits the definition of being able to keep bioload/fish alive, that's cycled. that's when people begin/add stuff/set up shop for the week. the main change in the hobby we are seeing across thousands of tanks is that when nitrite catches up, its typically after the reef has started. That simply changes the allowed start date, to now.

great example of high nitrites not factoring
 
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on the ammonia test question above at 2 ppm, the rule is you need to be able to move ammonia discernibly down by next day, doesn't have to be zero. if it can move any ammonia, it moves all ammonia that's the trick that veers us away from typical cycling rules and into 2020 where all convention reefs start on time without variation. if your tank can move ammonia down overnite, it fits the definition of being able to keep bioload/fish alive, that's cycled. that's when people begin/add stuff/set up shop for the week.
I do not like when people create their own definitions of accepted and long used terminology. To cycle a tank have always been - and will always be - IMO - that the tank has a working nitrification cycle - not only on step in the nitrification cycle. It does not matter if you can stock or not. In a microbiological point of view - to say a tank is cycled means that the nitrification cycle works the whole way from NH3/NH4 into NO3 - If anyone want to put livestock in a tank that´s not fully cycled (because it will not kill salt water fish) - that´s their decision but do not use the words that it is cycled. The terminology "to cycle a tank" is valid in fresh water too - and if you put in fish before it is full cycled in the classic way - it will be a catastrophe. For me - even in saltwater tanks it is very important that I cycle the tank full out - that even the nitrite oxidizers has established themselves because it is first when this has happen you can start to let the tank mature with help of heterotrophic bacteria. If you start favour them before the nitrite oxidizers has kicked in - you will have problem with nitrite spikes for a long time. and no one - not even you - know what nitrite does to other organisms in the long run. It is a very big difference to set up an aquarium for a weekend compared with setting it up for life.

If you set up a tank with a chemical load of high NH3/NH4 levels - you have a very high risk to stall the nitrification cycle before the second step. If you instead start the tank with adding very low but increasing concentrations of NH3/NH4 during around three weeks (as I do with a sparse feed fish) you will favour both steps and get a seamless kick in of the second stage. Of cause - you can start with chemical NH3/NH4 too but - IMO - with very, very low daily amount.

Sincerely Lasse
 
we are effectively changing the terminology of cycling on purpose, to match changing needs, and we are backing it with massive amount of work links showing why this change is happening. what Daniel does above is an example to all with nitrite concerns, its in his opening paragraph. on page 6 we now have bounce mushrooms. he can start the reef.

Remember, they also told me once that pico reefs could not work, allelopathy would kill it all.

It is possible to change cycling in this hobby just like we did with pico reefs, one link at a time until self momentum builds. notice how all the work links are backing the new claims, its a pattern emerging we have to deal with. all these reefs we are starting can be tracked, to see if they're thriving. your analysis simply must involve reading some of the links and predicting if the tanks are on track or not.
 
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The last tank that I cycled, when it looked like I had "stalled out" at nitrite, I put in a few pieces of live rock from my other tank, and nitrite went from max to zero overnight. I can not say for everyone, but in my case, I did not have enough of whatever converts nitrite into nitrate.
 
The last tank that I cycled, when it looked like I had "stalled out" at nitrite, I put in a few pieces of live rock from my other tank, and nitrite went from max to zero overnight. I can not say for everyone, but in my case, I did not have enough of whatever converts nitrite into nitrate.
Exactly - it can be as easy like that. I had a stalled tank (NO3 levels around 3 ppm for weeks once). Use some filtrated water from soil - the same happens - from 3 to 0 during 12 hours. Why take short cuts (if you do not need it)

For me - nitrite in the water (even if it not is acute toxic) is a stressfactor. New aquarium, not stable conditions, many stress factors together will interfere with fish immune system and make them more vulnerable for diseases - methods that minimize stalling of the nitrification cycle should be put forward - not the opposite. It is one stress factor less.

Sincerely Lasse
 
The last tank that I cycled, when it looked like I had "stalled out" at nitrite, I put in a few pieces of live rock from my other tank, and nitrite went from max to zero overnight. I can not say for everyone, but in my case, I did not have enough of whatever converts nitrite into nitrate.
I could try that...How much did you put in? My scape is pretty "full". Would just a small piece jump start the process?
 

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