Cycling question

[kframe]

I know you guys are probably tired of beating a dead horse, but I was hoping to get some input for my specific situation. Every time I've cycle an aquarium, I've used dry rock and sand. This time I went with a different approach. I used established purple rock from my lfs and I used the carib sea live sand. I let the tank run for roughly 2 weeks and It never showed any NH3, NO2 or NO3. I decided to get some ammonia and dose it with hopes to boost the cycle along. I got the ammonia to 2ppm and let it run. I just tested the aquarium and my NH3 is reading 1.5ppm, NO2 : 2pp and my NO3 is through the roof at 100ppm. Where is my tank at on cycling? Will my tank cycle differently from using dry rock and sand? Should I do anything or just let run? I appreciate any help/tips

 

[Coralreefer1]

In the past, when I would cycle a tank, I would use either cured or uncured live rock. Carib live sand or mature sand from another tank or from a local pet shop. I would also drop a piece of frozen shrimp in the tank for a nitrogen source. If I plan on not cycling my new tank, I will use some water from one of my established tanks with some live sand and rock from the same tank. With that route I can add livestock right from the getgo.

 

[don_chuwish]

When dosing ammonia I think this is a good guide, even if not using Dr. Tim's beneficial bacteria:

Fishless Cycling | DrTim's Aquatics

Everything you need for successful Fishless Cycling DrTim’s Aquatics best-selling product, One & Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria is the ultimate nitrifying bacteria for use in fishless cycling. Now you can put an end to “New Tank Syndrome” forever. DrTim’s Aquatics offers complete, step-by-step...

www.drtimsaquatics.com

 

[W1ngz]

IF I understand you correctly, you dropped in established rock and live sand 2 weeks ago, but never added an ammonia (NH3) source. Over 2 weeks a lot of the bacteria would have died back since they had little food. The presence of high nitrates seems to indicate there was some sort of dead or dying matter early on and it was processed through to nitrate, probably quite quickly.

What is the timeline on adding the 2ppm ammonia to when you got down to 1.5ppm? I generally expect 2ppm to be cleared in 24 hours to consider my tank cycled sufficiently to add a small handful of snails, hermits and 1 fish and wait 30 days.

It sounds like you already have a viable bacterial colony, they just need a boost to multiply a little more and you're ready to support a fish.

 

[kframe]

IF I understand you correctly, you dropped in established rock and live sand 2 weeks ago, but never added an ammonia (NH3) source. Over 2 weeks a lot of the bacteria would have died back since they had little food. The presence of high nitrates seems to indicate there was some sort of dead or dying matter early on and it was processed through to nitrate, probably quite quickly.

What is the timeline on adding the 2ppm ammonia to when you got down to 1.5ppm? I generally expect 2ppm to be cleared in 24 hours to consider my tank cycled sufficiently to add a small handful of snails, hermits and 1 fish and wait 30 days.

It sounds like you already have a viable bacterial colony, they just need a boost to multiply a little more and you're ready to support a fish.

Yes you did understand correctly. Although it's been longer than 2 weeks my tank has been running, but when I set it up I didnt add a NH3 source. I was dosing microbacter7 during this time. After a couple weeks is when I added fritz Ammonium until I reached 2ppm. I'm not sure exactly on the time frame,but I'm sure it's been a week or better that I dosed the ammonium and it came down to 1.5ppm on it's own. I have yet to do any water changes, I've been trying to let it run its course. I just wasn't sure where I was at with this approach. Should I do be doing a water change or anything?

 

[MnFish1]

I know you guys are probably tired of beating a dead horse, but I was hoping to get some input for my specific situation. Every time I've cycle an aquarium, I've used dry rock and sand. This time I went with a different approach. I used established purple rock from my lfs and I used the carib sea live sand. I let the tank run for roughly 2 weeks and It never showed any NH3, NO2 or NO3. I decided to get some ammonia and dose it with hopes to boost the cycle along. I got the ammonia to 2ppm and let it run. I just tested the aquarium and my NH3 is reading 1.5ppm, NO2 : 2pp and my NO3 is through the roof at 100ppm. Where is my tank at on cycling? Will my tank cycle differently from using dry rock and sand? Should I do anything or just let run? I appreciate any help/tips

To answer the question - it would be good to know how long you 'let it run' to get the ammonia to go from 2 to 1.5 ppm. If it was a day - thats pretty good if it was 2 weeks thats not so good.

Remember there is really no such thing as 'a completed cycle. For example - if you had only added .5 ppm ammonia - instead of 2 ppm - your ammonia would have dropped to 0.... Would that have been a completed cycle? If you had added 4 ppm ammonia - and it dropped to 3.5 - would that have been a 'worse' cycle?

Its just IMO important to realize what you're trying to accomplish - and that is the ability to add fish./corals. What this tells you is that you can add a fish that produces .5 ppm ammonia. On the contrary - you may have problems if you quickly add fish that produce 2 ppm ammonia in the same period. BTW - it would take quite a bit of fish to product even .5 ppm ammonia in say a 50 gallon tank. I think you're fine to add fish. (after doing a water change to lower your nitrate) - if that was your question.

EDIT - I meant you're fine to add fish once the ammonia drops to zero.

 

[kframe]

To answer the question - it would be good to know how long you 'let it run' to get the ammonia to go from 2 to 1.5 ppm. If it was a day - thats pretty good if it was 2 weeks thats not so good.

Remember there is really no such thing as 'a completed cycle. For example - if you had only added .5 ppm ammonia - instead of 2 ppm - your ammonia would have dropped to 0.... Would that have been a completed cycle? If you had added 4 ppm ammonia - and it dropped to 3.5 - would that have been a 'worse' cycle?

Its just IMO important to realize what you're trying to accomplish - and that is the ability to add fish./corals. What this tells you is that you can add a fish that produces .5 ppm ammonia. On the contrary - you may have problems if you quickly add fish that produce 2 ppm ammonia in the same period. BTW - it would take quite a bit of fish to product even .5 ppm ammonia in say a 50 gallon tank. I think you're fine to add fish. (after doing a water change to lower your nitrate) - if that was your question.

EDIT - I meant you're fine to add fish once the ammonia drops to zero.

I'm not to concerned about adding fish just yet. I meaning ultimately yes, I eventually want to add seahorses. I was just wondering where I'm at on my cycle. Is it time to start doing water changes to get my parameters in check? Should I continue to let it run its course? Should I be concerned with the nitrates being so high?

 

[W1ngz]

Yes you did understand correctly. Although it's been longer than 2 weeks my tank has been running, but when I set it up I didnt add a NH3 source. I was dosing microbacter7 during this time. After a couple weeks is when I added fritz Ammonium until I reached 2ppm. I'm not sure exactly on the time frame,but I'm sure it's been a week or better that I dosed the ammonium and it came down to 1.5ppm on it's own. I have yet to do any water changes, I've been trying to let it run its course. I just wasn't sure where I was at with this approach. Should I do be doing a water change or anything?

It's anecdotal, but I've read that high nitrates can slow or stall bacteria reproduction.
Do as big a water change as you can to lower the nitrates down to 20ish and then dose ammonia back to 2ppm.
Then start the clock and test ammonia daily for 2-3 days to see how fast it's falling. Your goal is ammonia falling from 2ppm to 0 in +/- 24 hours.

 

[kframe]

It's anecdotal, but I've read that high nitrates can slow or stall bacteria reproduction.
Do as big a water change as you can to lower the nitrates down to 20ish and then dose ammonia back to 2ppm.
Then start the clock and test ammonia daily for 2-3 days to see how fast it's falling. Your goal is ammonia falling from 2ppm to 0 in +/- 24 hours.

Right on, thanks for the advice! I appreciate it.

 

[kframe]

Just did a water change, I'll check nitrate in the morning. If its, not at or below 20ppm should I do another one right away or give it a couple days?

 

[W1ngz]

20-ish is just to leave room to avoid having to do another water change later on while you see where you're at with the ammonia processing, so it's really up to you as long as you cut it down a lot from the 100+ you tested at. Overall you'll want it below 10 when you start transitioning from setup and cycle to having something living in it.

 

[DMG Reef]

You won't get an accurate nitrate reading until your cycle is complete. Your nitrates are not really 100 ppm. As long as you are getting a nitrite reading (2 ppm), your nitrate test results are skewed. The actual nitrate level is most likely around 20 ppm. Don't even bother testing nitrates until nitrites are zero.

 

[kframe]

You won't get an accurate nitrate reading until your cycle is complete. Your nitrates are not really 100 ppm. As long as you are getting a nitrite reading (2 ppm), your nitrate test results are skewed. The actual nitrate level is most likely around 20 ppm. Don't even bother testing nitrates until nitrites are zero.

Yeah that's right!? As I was reading your comment I remember reading about that in another article. For some reason I didnt even consider it...thanks!

 

[Reefer_Rob]

You won't get an accurate nitrate reading until your cycle is complete. Your nitrates are not really 100 ppm. As long as you are getting a nitrite reading (2 ppm), your nitrate test results are skewed. The actual nitrate level is most likely around 20 ppm. Don't even bother testing nitrates until nitrites are zero.

This is great info and the first time im hearing it. Im 9 days into my cycle and this answers some of my questions.

 

[MnFish1]

This is great info and the first time im hearing it. Im 9 days into my cycle and this answers some of my questions.

The issue is that nitrites can cause a false positive nitrate level - so that if your nitrates are positive - it might be nitrites. That said - I dont think that 1 or 2 ppm nitrites will cause a 100 ppm false positive nitrate..... In any case

 

[DMG Reef]

The issue is that nitrites can cause a false positive nitrate level - so that if your nitrates are positive - it might be nitrites. That said - I dont think that 1 or 2 ppm nitrites will cause a 100 ppm false positive nitrate..... In any case

I don't have the exact conversion info, but this is the quote from Doctor Reef on the "other" reefing forum:

"Those nitrates are not your tanks actual nitrates levels. All test kits measure nitrites and nitrates together and If I remember the formula true nitrates should be about 25-30ppm.
nitrates get broken down to nitrites and are then measured. The nitrate reduction process isn't 100% effective so nitrites have a proportionally higher impact on nitrate readings.
Nitrites are not harmful to fish in saltwater. In fact you can start water changes now as ammonia has hit 0 and bring nitrite and nitrate down to acceptable range.
50% water change will bring nitrites down to 5ppm giving that bacteria a little easier task will drop nitrates down to half as well till nitrites go to 0 then you will be able to see the true nitrates in your tank."