cycling with salt

[Willbiker]

Hi all. My 690l tank is at the correct salinity and is half way through fishless cycling. However I now need to do a water change as my nitrites are above 5ppm and I dont want the cycle stalling.

My question is, do I need to salt the water perfectly while the tank is cycling? I have 2 more vast water changes to do before I can add fish and that's a lot of salt which will be wasted.

Thanks

 

[pcon]

Great question, so there are different species of bacteria that live at different salinities, dr tim, talks about it in this macna talk, I am not sure the specific cut offs, for which species we are trying to cultivate during the cycle for our tanks. There is some wiggle room for sure but it is not like you can use freshwater.

 

[brandon429]

You can ignore nitrite in a cycle, the video is wrong above when he implies it will stall ammonia control. When he’s not wrong, all the reefs we start without measuring nitrite will die and the owners will post anger

all the reefs that set up at macna and reef stock as instant, skip cycle reefs will stop working and the $ conventions will shut down due to tanks not mature enough to handle nitrite, they were all set up on a Thursday nite.

On a lab slide, bacteria might stall but never ever ever will it stall when the surface area used is rocks and sand, a typical reef start.




Reef cycles have never stalled, the cause/ effect scenario of thinking cycles stall has made lots of people buy bottle bac over and over to remedy a situation that doesn't occur.

I have a large thread where we prove this and start twenty reef tanks as soon as they can control ammonia, we ignore nitrite and always will. In another cycling thread running since 2016, twenty pages of no-test reef cycling. Using new cycling rules we've never seen a single reef stall, not once.

Simply put away nitrite testing and forego it in cycling, pretty simple

Once your tank makes ammonia move down, from an initial set point, it's cycled and can't stall at all. The ammonia doesn't have to reach zero, just move down. ( this change in rule makes all ammonia tests work correctly when otherwise .25 equals zero ammonia, moving down from 1 or 2ppm overnite proves bacteria and surface area are set)

Don't add anymore ammonia that way you can change less water before starting in the big tank. You’re changing it for algae water purposes, less uglies initial phase it’s not for stall prevention.

 

[brandon429]

I realize it's rather brash to say a PhD macna speaker is wrong about a reef claim/ but this particular claim we've put special work into to develop new cycling rules so that people buy less redundant additives for a condition that was already going to work out fine in the first place.

We have been cycling hundreds of reefs with the premise no cycle has ever stalled in all reefing for five years now in our MBC thread, much less all the individual tanks cycled in private message. I have the work examples handy for linking in case my claims seem outlandish, over a hundred reef tank examples.

 

[piranhaman00]

I wouldnt do anything, add another bottle of bb if concerned, but you will not/are not stalled. I cycled a tank that was into the 8-10ppm NO2 range. Yes it will take longer but this isnt "stalling" per say. It just takes longer to convert which makes sense because you have a higher then normal amount

 

[brandon429]

Matter of fact let's trace out your cycle and deem it fully ready or not based on recurring trends that have nothing to do with tests

if your first fish die, you were stalled and there will be accountability for my bucking the $ystem

but if your planned start bioload lIves, right now without any further addition, then we have found a worthy pattern and a much more affordable way to cycle.

Question: did you add 1-3 day cycling bottle bac (any strain you could purchase) to a tank of rock and sand, plus a feed source, and it's been stewing more than three days? You're cycled

I can’t resist. Here’s two of one hundred:

Cycling a new Biocube 32

Hello all! My name is Daniel from Florida and I’m starting to get into the reef hobby. I have been cycling my tank for two weeks now and logging it into an app. I have recently been gifted a live rock with some good amount of coralline on it. I also got some water from and established tank. My...

www.reef2reef.com

high nitrite when we started

Fishelss Cycle Questions

Hi everyone. I'm currently on day 13 of a fishless cycle using Aquavitro Seed and Dr. Tim's ammonium chloride. I dosed to 4 ppm ammonia on day one. It took until day 11 to have ammonia back to zero, and I have not dosed ammonia again due to off the chart nitrite readings. I've well been over 5...

www.reef2reef.com

high nitrite when we started

read that cycle flow we used in the two tanks, we couldn’t possibly be more opposite to claims made there in the video above.


regarding no nitrification bacteria floating in water, claimed from the video~
a direct test to see if reef water has lots of transmissible bacteria

Connecting Established Reef To New Tank

EDIT: In conclusion, if using the method I did - connecting an established reef to a new system with dry rock (clean), I recommend the following: 1. Dose your new tank prior to connecting to your old tank with NO3 and PO4 enough to raise to your established tank levels. 2. Take your skimmer...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Willbiker]

Thanks for your reply. Ammonia has dropped from 3ppm to 1ppm and nitrate has gone from 0 to 10ppm so nitrite removing bacteria are working. So are you saying my tank is now cycled and fish safe? If I do 80 or 90% water change to remove all nitrite and remaining ammonia...I can add a couple of small clowns safely? Thanks

 

[brandon429]

You can add them right now changing nothing, what you stated above confirms a finished cycle/ will not kill starting bioload. The reason to change water is solely to start off with less algae feed, if you changed none the fish live just the same. Nitrite is neutral in reefing, doesn’t matter if there is some. the ammonia would show .00X thousandths ppm if this tank was tested on seneye vs api or Red Sea, and thats the safe zone.

once ammonia moves down on a cheap tester, on a $300 seneye tester it will read in the thousandths, safe.

 

[Willbiker]

But I have a high reading of nitrite and nitrite is toxic to fish...right?

 

[homer1475]

No nitrite is not toxic to marine life. It is in FW, but not a marine environment.

 

[brandon429]

No its polar opposite, it’s not toxic to fish. Check those two threads above

*im not doing this to slight someone I’ve looked up to in the hobby / Tim/ it’s to rectify how forums are so hesitant to begin, they’ll keep paying for bottle bac over and over, yet these guys managed to wrangle 400 no stalls:


some or most of those can’t control nitrite fully, as nitrite controllers take time to amass. They started anyway because nitrite isn’t harmful. Our testers cannot read accurately for nitrite when nitrate is in the system we don’t even have accurate nitrite tests in the hobby.


my goal in new cycling science is to kick out old forum rules, hesitate and measure using wrong kits, buy more bottle bac over and over, and instead use what they’re using above at the convention-resolute, always works, one pass cycling.

 

[Willbiker]

No nitrite is not toxic to marine life. It is in FW, but not a marine environment.

Oh! I was not aware of this. Ok thanks a lot for the advice!

 

[NS Mike D]

Our testers cannot read accurately for nitrite when nitrate is in the system we don’t even have accurate nitrite tests in the hobby.

The number of threads of people doing more harm following advice posted in this forum based on posted numbers when, in many cases, the numbers are not reliable is mind boggling.

I don't even rely on my ability to read a test. I'd bet if I tested the same water 10x, I 'd record 10 different numbers.

 

[brandon429]

and the sheer waste of cash. I post this ad to show how deep seated the notion is that we can stall a cycle, and therefore must reinvest in it:

not one single reef using rocks and sand has ever stalled, in all of reefing, since the start. Cycles follow the timelines for the boosters we use, in 1984 before bottle bac, people still kept saltwater as they followed 30 day cycling charts based on submersion time.

how many above re purchased that bottle bac thinking the cycled stalled?

Right now I guarantee a reefer is thinking: only bad things happen with rushed starts


but I’m challenging the notion of *who* sets the starting point, and how we measure that. When ammonia moves down soon after a known dose or source of bacteria has been applied, we are all cycled because no cycle can stall on the move down part. <—they start reef conventions at this interval. For decades.


the key was sourcing seneye measures. With api, everything stalls always.

from links here we can see:

-tank water has tons of nitrifiers. They transmit free of charge to dry plumbed surfaces, within the timeframe of an unassisted common cycle chart. Tufffy started a dry rock system using NO bottle bac.
-two full fish starts are shown while nitrite read positive but ammonia was controlled
-we have been told reef cycles can stall but they cannot, nobody has trouble starting a reef convention on time using the ‘secret‘ method just exposed.

 

[brandon429]

What’s the plan for fish disease control here for this tank


that’s a huge choice, it appears from the fish disease forum anyone adding mixed fish is highly likely to lose some within six mos due to common ailments unless a specialized timing of fish occurs.


some people use their cycle start date to add stuff so a long fallow period isn’t so boring.

 

[tamanning]

Passionate are we? Nice answers though. The information available is confusing at best.
I for one am glad this forum exists.

 

[brandon429]

I am very glad they do not ban me. Viva reef 2 reef for free and challenging info.

this is how far Id have got on other forums: “nitrite doesn’t”....bam, banned

the free market will crush bad info on its own. Hey, you just killed my reef with that advice/drummed out of town by the republic/is the best referee for forum info validation in my opinion.

 

[NS Mike D]

Passionate are we? Nice answers though. The information available is confusing at best.
I for one am glad this forum exists.

especially when the beginner forum contradicts itself with the stickies on some simple things like stalled cycle or nitrites.

Are nitrites toxic (I would assume the answer to this would be in the context of saltwater fish, given the name of this site)? If you read the beginner forum stickies, you would have to think so because it is toxic to fish and that nearly every thread and the stickies say so.

BUT, because of the chorides in saltwater, they never get the chance to do harm (credible science papers have been posted on this forum to back this up), so in practice . it's not a real concern to the reef hobbyist.

However, Nitrites and its toxicity is among the top of the list of worries implanted into the minds of a beginner reading the getting started threads.

Then, add into the equation, that most of test kits we have cannot accurately measure nitrites for cycling purposes. (see test result posts using seneye ).

So we have misleading information being spread as gospel, and then not disclosing the test klts will likely be wrong. How can new reefer NOT become confused?

 

[brandon429]

well said.

I also know there is no harm in waiting for the nitrite kits to show a drop if everything works out regarding cross readings etc, there are many working test kits and samplers among the posted readings agreed. my main focus was to highlight a perceived consequence to cycling that causes both a hesitation and a buy impulse; its amazing behavior. its then amazing to link and study reef conventions where the notion of a stalled cycle simply doesnt exist, they laugh at that as forum fodder.

we need to know that difference among the two realms in my opinion

Rule breaking by itself is pretty fun, much less with something so controversial that could kill your whole tank with a bad start. Once all these patterns unfold of consequence-free cycling, we're onto something, a scent trail has been found.

the scent trail is that these filtration bac are a thousand times tougher, resourceful (can't starve a set in cycle by withholding feed) and tolerant vs what we've been told or sold.

it was fun that one time we had someone post the fritz link online that says filtration bacteria can't tolerate being in air, and then I posted my old reef being drained for half an hour, for the 300th time.

every rule they make, we break it in pattern, solicit others to try, stack the results and link it back for them. this is very fun. fair market procedure evolution.