Dead Royal Grama

[Pazernaker]

First things first, I'm going through a chemiclean treatment for Cyanobacteria, so the filter has been off for about 40 hours, but skimmer has been running. Here are my current numbers:

Ph 8.1
NO2: 0 (rock bottom)
NO3: 5-10 ppm
Ammonia: .6
Phosphate: 5-6
Calcium: about 400
Temp: 80

Woke up this morning to a dead grama right next to my Condy. Don't know if that killed it, if it was a disease, the chemiclean, or if he was just old and died (I just bought him a few weeks ago). Seems healthy, doesn't look starved, and was actively swimming around the tank yesterday playing in the rocks. He does have a weird spot on the side he was lying on the ground on near his tail, but don't know if that's just the initial stages of decomposition or what. He must have JUST died because he hadn't lost any of his color or anything up to this point. Attached are pictures of him on his left and right side, let me know if you see anything nefarious about this.

Also, he did have something in his gils, but it came right off when I toughed it. Assuming it's sand from the bottom of the bed from when I picked him up, as it was hard.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

First things first, I'm going through a chemiclean treatment for Cyanobacteria, so the filter has been off for about 40 hours, but skimmer has been running. Here are my current numbers:

Ph 8.1
NO2: 0 (rock bottom)
NO3: 5-10 ppm
Ammonia: .6
Phosphate: 5-6
Calcium: about 400
Temp: 80

Woke up this morning to a dead grama right next to my Condy. Don't know if that killed it, if it was a disease, the chemiclean, or if he was just old and died (I just bought him a few weeks ago). Seems healthy, doesn't look starved, and was actively swimming around the tank yesterday playing in the rocks. He does have a weird spot on the side he was lying on the ground on near his tail, but don't know if that's just the initial stages of decomposition or what. He must have JUST died because he hadn't lost any of his color or anything up to this point. Attached are pictures of him on his left and right side, let me know if you see anything nefarious about this.

Also, he did have something in his gils, but it came right off when I toughed it. Assuming it's sand from the bottom of the bed from when I picked him up, as it was hard.

I can rule out one thing; it didn't die from age, that is a young fish.

Having only had it for a couple of weeks (and I presume it wasn't quarantined?) the first thought it had gill flukes, something pretty common to these fish. However, I keep getting reports of fish loss when people are using Chemiclean. I'd have to wonder if turning the filter off had something to do with this, perhaps low dissolved oxygen?

Are there any other fish in the tank?

Jay

 

[Pazernaker]

I can rule out one thing; it didn't die from age, that is a young fish.

Having only had it for a couple of weeks (and I presume it wasn't quarantined?) the first thought it had gill flukes, something pretty common to these fish. However, I keep getting reports of fish loss when people are using Chemiclean. I'd have to wonder if turning the filter off had something to do with this, perhaps low dissolved oxygen?

Are there any other fish in the tank?

Jay

Low oxygen is something I can pretty confidently rule out, as the protein skimmer is pumping bubbles into the water like it's nobody's business. This is a tank rescue/project from neglect and has a snowflake eel, an old sailfish tang, a mated pair of clowns, a blue spotted puffer and a wrasse (the really colorful one that starts with an m who's name I can't remember). Everything else looks fine, just woke up to a dead grama.

I'm still very green to this hobby, so please don't feel like you're asking stupid questions and let me know any thoughts you may have.

 

[Pazernaker]

I can rule out one thing; it didn't die from age, that is a young fish.

Having only had it for a couple of weeks (and I presume it wasn't quarantined?) the first thought it had gill flukes, something pretty common to these fish. However, I keep getting reports of fish loss when people are using Chemiclean. I'd have to wonder if turning the filter off had something to do with this, perhaps low dissolved oxygen?

Are there any other fish in the tank?

Jay

And no, not quarantined, I don't have a quarantine tank yet.

 

[LeftyReefer]

tail looks kinda beat up, maybe??
aggression from another fish?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Low oxygen is something I can pretty confidently rule out, as the protein skimmer is pumping bubbles into the water like it's nobody's business. This is a tank rescue/project from neglect and has a snowflake eel, an old sailfish tang, a mated pair of clowns, a blue spotted puffer and a wrasse (the really colorful one that starts with an m who's name I can't remember). Everything else looks fine, just woke up to a dead grama.

I'm still very green to this hobby, so please don't feel like you're asking stupid questions and let me know any thoughts you may have.

I would lean towards tankmate aggression, based on the frayed tail fin. However, that can happen after a fish dies, so I can't be certain.

Jay

 

[LeftyReefer]

Was it fighting over a cave/hiding spot with any other fish? They aren't aggressive per say, but can be very territorial fish.

 

[Pazernaker]

Was it fighting over a cave/hiding spot with any other fish? They aren't aggressive per say, but can be very territorial fish.

No, he had an entire massive liverock on the left side of the tank all to himself. He constantly was playing/hiding in and out of the nooks and crannies and I never witnessed aggression from others.

 

[Rmckoy]

Why turn off filtration while running chemi pure ?

 

[Pazernaker]

Why turn off filtration while running chemi pure ?

I was told to do that so the Chemiclean isn't affected by the activated charcoal bags in my cartridge filter. I'm not running a charcoal reactor, so those bags are the only things I have to clarify at the moment. I asked about taking them out and keeping the filter running and was told it would be OK to run without it for the 48 hours.

 

[Fishfreak2009]

Besides the frayed tail, I see a bloody wound by the tail on the right side of the fish. I would personally suspect either a Vibrio bacterial infection or Uronema, but would lean more towards Vibrio just based on placement. Uronema normally affects the main body moreso than towards the extremities.

 

[Pazernaker]

Besides the frayed tail, I see a bloody wound by the tail on the right side of the fish. I would personally suspect either a Vibrio bacterial infection or Uronema, but would lean more towards Vibrio just based on placement. Uronema normally affects the main body moreso than towards the extremities.

That mark was the only thing I saw out of the ordinary, but since I'm new to the hobby, didn't know if that was a disease or early stages of decomposition. Should I be cautious about it spreading in my tank? Is it a serious problem if that's what it is? Are there good treatment options?

 

[Fishfreak2009]

Besides the frayed tail, I see a bloody wound by the tail on the right side of the fish. I would personally suspect either a Vibrio bacterial infection or Uronema, but would lean more towards Vibrio just based on placement. Uronema normally affects the main body moreso than towards the extremities.

I'd also add that if you've used chemiclean in the past, it is easy to get Vibrio bacteria that are resistant to various antibiotics. Chemiclean is erythromycin, and repeated treatments with it can cause resistant bacteria to flourish. And bacteria that are resistant to one class of antibiotics are often resistant to others as well. I tell people to avoid using chemiclean and other antibiotics (cipro and metronidazole are also way overused in this hobby) whenever possible, and if antibiotics must be used, should be done appropriately and in a quarantine environment, not the display, so that the water can be treated with bleach afterwards to eliminate any residual bacteria potentiay resistant to the antibiotics used.

 

[Fishfreak2009]

That mark was the only thing I saw out of the ordinary, but since I'm new to the hobby, didn't know if that was a disease or early stages of decomposition. Should I be cautious about it spreading in my tank? Is it a serious problem if that's what it is? Are there good treatment options?

That sore is from before death, you can tell by all the blood present. It would look much different post mortem.

Keep a good eye on the other fish. If you see any pop up with wounds, pull them into quarantine and treat with appropriate antibiotics in a sterile quarantine setting.

 

[Rmckoy]

I was told to do that so the Chemiclean isn't affected by the activated charcoal bags in my cartridge filter. I'm not running a charcoal reactor, so those bags are the only things I have to clarify at the moment. I asked about taking them out and keeping the filter running and was told it would be OK to run without it for the 48 hours.

Chemi clean also has carbon

 

[Pazernaker]

Chemi clean also has carbon

No idea, just repeating what I'm told

Hoping to get to a point soon to be able to speak more educated about these topics, but right now, all I can do is regurgitate what I'm told and I read like it's fact. There's such an insanely steep learning curve to this.

 

[Ashy]

Maybe when it was sleeping under one of the rocks it shifted slightly and hurt it?

 

[vetteguy53081]

With chemiClean which I despise, filter needed to run. Skimmer can be turned off and should. With filter off, oxygen reduced. At minimum if turning off a filter, add an air stone for movement and oxygen exchange
The tail looks shredded suggesting aggression from a tankmate (something a clown would do)

 

[Fishfreak2009]

No idea, just repeating what I'm told

Hoping to get to a point soon to be able to speak more educated about these topics, but right now, all I can do is regurgitate what I'm told and I read like it's fact. There's such an insanely steep learning curve to this.

I'll save you a lot of time. Skip the miracle cures like chemiclean, vibrant, melafix/pimafix, and any "reef-safe" ich medication. They are marketing gimmicks that at best do nothing or at worst damage/kill livestock.

 

[Rmckoy]

No idea, just repeating what I'm told

Hoping to get to a point soon to be able to speak more educated about these topics, but right now, all I can do is regurgitate what I'm told and I read like it's fact. There's such an insanely steep learning curve to this.

Here is some food for thought .
Most lfs make money . They’re paid to sell products , even if that means blowing sand storms of useless knowledge up your wazoo
compared to experienced members here which have also been through the exact same scenario .
Take what’s said with a grain of salt but be responsible for your own research .
post and ask questions but ultimately what is added to your system is your educated decision .