Deasease(s) identification

[Talistoria]

Hi everyone,

After introducing a radiant and a yellow coris wrasses a month ago, my fish started showing signs of illness which I thought were the usual ich (which always go away within a few days when introduced to a new fish) but it turns out that this time the infection seems very different from what I usually face, and especially the symptoms differ from one fish to another.

Symptoms for different fish are:
- the two wrasses: nothing visible on the skin, rubbing from time to time on the sand
- lavender tang: Presence for a month of some kind of weird texture on the body + white spots, wriggling of the head, for two days has been swimming in front of the circulation pumps, seems very restless (including at night), very rapid breathing. Asks for a cleaning as soon as the radiant wrasse passes in his field of vision (and the radiant wrasse cleans him).
- longnose butterflyfish: hides, not very visible white dots on the body and the fins (one of them seems to have been torn), wriggling of the head, essentially stands in the shade in the rear right corner of the tank. Don't try to swim in front of the circulation pumps though and no heavy breathing. Opaque eyes since yesterday.
- Fire goby: no symptoms
- clown goby: nothing in terms of behavior but covered in clusters on the body + white dots.
- 2 Green chromis: no symptoms.
- 2 clowns: no symptoms.
- CBB: wriggling of the head and fins, a few dots on the fins, opaque eyes on the upper part since today.

Everyone eats with appetite the same menu as usual: live food every day (mussels, worms) + frozen mysis + nori + mastick twice a week with the addition of spirulina (and garlic since 2 weeks, just in case it could help?).

Before someone mentions it : I know since I read this forum that quarantine seems to be a must, but none of my fish have ever been in quarantine in the 30 years I've been in the hobby, and never lost a fish to illness. It's just something I never heard about before jumping into reef2reef (I'm in France, I don't know any friend in the hobby that QT fish either, I did as I always did as I learned 30 years ago). Now it would be impossible to catch them without butchering the corals to take down the scenery (tank is a softies reefer 525XL filled with corals, parameters nitrates 35, phosphates 0.08, everything else is in the norm).

Seeing that the symptoms did not pass, I started a treatment with H2O2, without effect for now.

Here is a photo of the goby clown tonight, he is the only one who has significant symptoms on the skin and who is not hiding in the background or in the shadows (the white dots on the lanvender are not visible on photo, skin being very clear, and the longnose is out of reach for picture).

I have the impression of seeing white dots, but not only. Condition severely worsen on the skin today. Strangely, he doesn't seem bothered in any way (eating and swimming as usual)

What do you think ? Ich? Velvet? Both?
Do I have any option left for treatment in tank?

Thank you

 

[ReeferHD]

looks pretty severe #fishmedic @Jay Hemdal

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hi everyone,

After introducing a radiant and a yellow coris wrasses a month ago, my fish started showing signs of illness which I thought were the usual ich (which always go away within a few days when introduced to a new fish) but it turns out that this time the infection seems very different from what I usually face, and especially the symptoms differ from one fish to another.

Symptoms for different fish are:
- the two wrasses: nothing visible on the skin, rubbing from time to time on the sand
- lavender tang: Presence for a month of some kind of weird texture on the body + white spots, wriggling of the head, for two days has been swimming in front of the circulation pumps, seems very restless (including at night), very rapid breathing. Asks for a cleaning as soon as the radiant wrasse passes in his field of vision (and the radiant wrasse cleans him).
- longnose butterflyfish: hides, not very visible white dots on the body and the fins (one of them seems to have been torn), wriggling of the head, essentially stands in the shade in the rear right corner of the tank. Don't try to swim in front of the circulation pumps though and no heavy breathing. Opaque eyes since yesterday.
- Fire goby: no symptoms
- clown goby: nothing in terms of behavior but covered in clusters on the body + white dots.
- 2 Green chromis: no symptoms.
- 2 clowns: no symptoms.
- CBB: wriggling of the head and fins, a few dots on the fins, opaque eyes on the upper part since today.

Everyone eats with appetite the same menu as usual: live food every day (mussels, worms) + frozen mysis + nori + mastick twice a week with the addition of spirulina (and garlic since 2 weeks, just in case it could help?).

Before someone mentions it : I know since I read this forum that quarantine seems to be a must, but none of my fish have ever been in quarantine in the 30 years I've been in the hobby, and never lost a fish to illness. It's just something I never heard about before jumping into reef2reef (I'm in France, I don't know any friend in the hobby that QT fish either, I did as I always did as I learned 30 years ago). Now it would be impossible to catch them without butchering the corals to take down the scenery (tank is a softies reefer 525XL filled with corals, parameters nitrates 35, phosphates 0.08, everything else is in the norm).

Seeing that the symptoms did not pass, I started a treatment with H2O2, without effect for now.

Here is a photo of the goby clown tonight, he is the only one who has significant symptoms on the skin and who is not hiding in the background or in the shadows (the white dots on the lanvender are not visible on photo, skin being very clear, and the longnose is out of reach for picture).

I have the impression of seeing white dots, but not only. Condition severely worsen on the skin today. Strangely, he doesn't seem bothered in any way (eating and swimming as usual)

What do you think ? Ich? Velvet? Both?
Do I have any option left for treatment in tank?

Thank you

Appears t be mucus cones associated with skin irritation or marine ich which I suspect marine ich. With others as you indicated showing No signs, I would keep them separated from this fish placing this fish in quarantine and going the hyposalinity route (1.009 salt level ) or treating in tank with coppersafe at therapeutic level 2.25 for a full 30 days.
Regarding diet, I would for added vitamins and aminos add foods such as :
Lrs fish frenzy
small plankton
Formula 2 frozen
Hikari veggie diet
TDO Pellets

Garlic aids with immunity health but do add selcon vitamins or vita chem to foods occasionally for overall stamina and tissue health

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hi everyone,

After introducing a radiant and a yellow coris wrasses a month ago, my fish started showing signs of illness which I thought were the usual ich (which always go away within a few days when introduced to a new fish) but it turns out that this time the infection seems very different from what I usually face, and especially the symptoms differ from one fish to another.

Symptoms for different fish are:
- the two wrasses: nothing visible on the skin, rubbing from time to time on the sand
- lavender tang: Presence for a month of some kind of weird texture on the body + white spots, wriggling of the head, for two days has been swimming in front of the circulation pumps, seems very restless (including at night), very rapid breathing. Asks for a cleaning as soon as the radiant wrasse passes in his field of vision (and the radiant wrasse cleans him).
- longnose butterflyfish: hides, not very visible white dots on the body and the fins (one of them seems to have been torn), wriggling of the head, essentially stands in the shade in the rear right corner of the tank. Don't try to swim in front of the circulation pumps though and no heavy breathing. Opaque eyes since yesterday.
- Fire goby: no symptoms
- clown goby: nothing in terms of behavior but covered in clusters on the body + white dots.
- 2 Green chromis: no symptoms.
- 2 clowns: no symptoms.
- CBB: wriggling of the head and fins, a few dots on the fins, opaque eyes on the upper part since today.

Everyone eats with appetite the same menu as usual: live food every day (mussels, worms) + frozen mysis + nori + mastick twice a week with the addition of spirulina (and garlic since 2 weeks, just in case it could help?).

Before someone mentions it : I know since I read this forum that quarantine seems to be a must, but none of my fish have ever been in quarantine in the 30 years I've been in the hobby, and never lost a fish to illness. It's just something I never heard about before jumping into reef2reef (I'm in France, I don't know any friend in the hobby that QT fish either, I did as I always did as I learned 30 years ago). Now it would be impossible to catch them without butchering the corals to take down the scenery (tank is a softies reefer 525XL filled with corals, parameters nitrates 35, phosphates 0.08, everything else is in the norm).

Seeing that the symptoms did not pass, I started a treatment with H2O2, without effect for now.

Here is a photo of the goby clown tonight, he is the only one who has significant symptoms on the skin and who is not hiding in the background or in the shadows (the white dots on the lanvender are not visible on photo, skin being very clear, and the longnose is out of reach for picture).

I have the impression of seeing white dots, but not only. Condition severely worsen on the skin today. Strangely, he doesn't seem bothered in any way (eating and swimming as usual)

What do you think ? Ich? Velvet? Both?
Do I have any option left for treatment in tank?

Thank you

Have you lost any fish yet?
Are any fish breathing faster than normal?
Hydrogen peroxide has some limited use in fish disease control, but it is dose dependent - do you know the dose you were using? Typical low dose additions (safe for reef tanks) has little benefit for disease control.

I'm seeing signs of multiple issues, so there may be more than one issue going on here...

It may be that your tank has been "managing" ich, but that it is losing ground, with some fish showing ich trophonts (like the goby in the picture). It may recede, but it also may tip to the side of an active infection...time will tell.

The mucus plugs are not normally a huge issue, but ich can cause them as well as general stress.

The shyness and head shaking can be a sign of skin flukes.

Jay

 

[Talistoria]

Thanks for your answers !

@Jay Hemdal I'm following the recommandations of Humblefish for peroxide dosing, except I sped up the process by increasing the dose each time to reach the final dosing faster than preconised. So I'm currently dosing 1mL/5g 3times a day (one dose just before lights on, one dose when lights off and one middleday dose) + 2mL every 15 minutes during the night.

I'm using a UV too.

I haven't lost any fish yet. I am with a "managing" tank as you say. Ich is no new for the tank but never has it gone so long or so bad (older fishes in the tank have been home for 14 years).

For flukes, I tried to find Prazipro in France/europe but no luck. I see "Fluke Solve" can be used, but it seems to be for ponds (there are kois on the package ), is that version ok in a reef tank or is there a specific reef version that I didn't find yet ?


@vetteguy53081 I have 6 sick fish, including 3 big (longnose, CBB and tang) + 5 others not showing signs (yet) I would have to break down my rockwork (everything glued or cemented + corals encrusted everywhere) to catch them all. Won't it be too stressfull for them and worsening their situation ?
If i opt for a quarantine tank and fallow period for the main display, what size should the quarantine tank be for that many adult fish (15cm or so for the larger ones) ?
I will try to find other foods to complement what they already have.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks for your answers !

@Jay Hemdal I'm following the recommandations of Humblefish for peroxide dosing, except I sped up the process by increasing the dose each time to reach the final dosing faster than preconised. So I'm currently dosing 1mL/5g 3times a day (one dose just before lights on, one dose when lights off and one middleday dose) + 2mL every 15 minutes during the night.

I'm using a UV too.

I haven't lost any fish yet. I am with a "managing" tank as you say. Ich is no new for the tank but never has it gone so long or so bad (older fishes in the tank have been home for 14 years).

For flukes, I tried to find Prazipro in France/europe but no luck. I see "Fluke Solve" can be used, but it seems to be for ponds (there are kois on the package ), is that version ok in a reef tank or is there a specific reef version that I didn't find yet ?


@vetteguy53081 I have 6 sick fish, including 3 big (longnose, CBB and tang) + 5 others not showing signs (yet) I would have to break down my rockwork (everything glued or cemented + corals encrusted everywhere) to catch them all. Won't it be too stressfull for them and worsening their situation ?
If i opt for a quarantine tank and fallow period for the main display, what size should the quarantine tank be for that many adult fish (15cm or so for the larger ones) ?
I will try to find other foods to complement what they already have.

Use fish trap which is a sure bet and im not too keen on peroxide dosing. It works for some but fails for many. Often with treatment- time is of essence. Its a chance you take

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks for your answers !

@Jay Hemdal I'm following the recommandations of Humblefish for peroxide dosing, except I sped up the process by increasing the dose each time to reach the final dosing faster than preconised. So I'm currently dosing 1mL/5g 3times a day (one dose just before lights on, one dose when lights off and one middleday dose) + 2mL every 15 minutes during the night.

I'm using a UV too.

I haven't lost any fish yet. I am with a "managing" tank as you say. Ich is no new for the tank but never has it gone so long or so bad (older fishes in the tank have been home for 14 years).

For flukes, I tried to find Prazipro in France/europe but no luck. I see "Fluke Solve" can be used, but it seems to be for ponds (there are kois on the package ), is that version ok in a reef tank or is there a specific reef version that I didn't find yet ?


@vetteguy53081 I have 6 sick fish, including 3 big (longnose, CBB and tang) + 5 others not showing signs (yet) I would have to break down my rockwork (everything glued or cemented + corals encrusted everywhere) to catch them all. Won't it be too stressfull for them and worsening their situation ?
If i opt for a quarantine tank and fallow period for the main display, what size should the quarantine tank be for that many adult fish (15cm or so for the larger ones) ?
I will try to find other foods to complement what they already have.

If youre in Europe, you can use Avloclor for ich. If you want something for flukes. . . Sera Tremazole

 

[Talistoria]

Thank you for the names to use in europe.

I'll find a fish trap.

How big of a tank should I invest in for quarantine/treatment of my community tank ? (lavender tang, CBB, longnose, clown pair, clown goby, fire goby, 2 chromis, 2 wrasses, all are full adult size except the wrasses)

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Thanks for your answers !

@Jay Hemdal I'm following the recommandations of Humblefish for peroxide dosing, except I sped up the process by increasing the dose each time to reach the final dosing faster than preconised. So I'm currently dosing 1mL/5g 3times a day (one dose just before lights on, one dose when lights off and one middleday dose) + 2mL every 15 minutes during the night.

I'm using a UV too.

I haven't lost any fish yet. I am with a "managing" tank as you say. Ich is no new for the tank but never has it gone so long or so bad (older fishes in the tank have been home for 14 years).

For flukes, I tried to find Prazipro in France/europe but no luck. I see "Fluke Solve" can be used, but it seems to be for ponds (there are kois on the package ), is that version ok in a reef tank or is there a specific reef version that I didn't find yet ?


@vetteguy53081 I have 6 sick fish, including 3 big (longnose, CBB and tang) + 5 others not showing signs (yet) I would have to break down my rockwork (everything glued or cemented + corals encrusted everywhere) to catch them all. Won't it be too stressfull for them and worsening their situation ?
If i opt for a quarantine tank and fallow period for the main display, what size should the quarantine tank be for that many adult fish (15cm or so for the larger ones) ?
I will try to find other foods to complement what they already have.

Re: Fluke Solve - that's a bit of a wild card. It contains praziquantel, nitroscanate and emamectin benzoate. I don't know if the latter two ingredients are reef safe.


Re: peroxide -
When you say 2ml every 15 minutes, is that per 5 gallons, or for the whole tank?

That whole process is really sketchy - it has not been proven to work, and every dose you make in a marine aquarium is wholly dependent on the organic loading, which changes with the additions, so you never really know the free oxidant level in the water. Also, there is a lot of literature that shows that UV breaks down peroxides. I won't dose H2O2 unless I use a peroxide dip and read test to manage the free peroxides in the water.

Here is a write up I did on the topic:

Hydrogen Peroxide - as a low dose, static bath to treat acute disease issues.

The history of peroxide use goes like this: a paper was published showing how 75 ppm peroxide baths would eliminate Amyloodinium on Pacific threadfin fish. These fish were cured if the dips were done twice and the fish moved to clean tanks each time. Somebody read that and thought, "Hmmm, I wonder if low dose peroxide used as a static bath would work on ich?" They then began pushing the idea out there as an "experiment". The problem is that peroxide at levels high enough to kill ich theronts can also harm the beneficial bacteria, and sometimes ornamental shrimp. Additionally, hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizer. Like all of these (chlorine, ozone, permanganate etc.) the level of active chemical in the water is related to the organic levels. The less organics in the water, the higher the active dose. As you add peroxide, it consumes organics, causing a rise in unreacted peroxide. So - you need to use test strips to monitor that change. Hydrogen peroxide has been shown to cause a reduction in theronts in marine aquariums, but the dose tested for an 80% reduction was 10 ppm, which is pretty high to use as a static bath.

Jay

 

[Talistoria]

Hi @Jay Hemdal
I'm so sorry, I thought I sent my answer but stayed on the preview page

Thank you for your answer! It's a bit complicated to navigate with all these contrary advices and experiences on what works or not . I'm still waiting my fish trap (store closed for hollidays and my order was not processed before they closed).

For dosing at night with peroxide, goal is said to double the day dose during the night and fraction that dose in several 2ml doses, following this protocol https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/peroxide-h2o2-dosing-for-parasites-in-reef-tank.725/

I wanted to post this last week but as I said, I stayed on the preview page... : My friend, who bought a pair of clowns the same day as me, has what seems to be ich in her tank too since she added them, although only the PBT is showing signs. Is it possible to confirm it is ich and not something else ?
-> today, number of ich has slightly growing on PBT (still possible to count them though, less than 20) and still no other fish sick. She doesn't have quarantine/hospital tank either. Would you recommand to invest in a trap + another tank to take the fish out in quarantine, or is it too risky / not worth it to stress him out when ichs are still not so many?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hi @Jay Hemdal
I'm so sorry, I thought I sent my answer but stayed on the preview page

Thank you for your answer! It's a bit complicated to navigate with all these contrary advices and experiences on what works or not . I'm still waiting my fish trap (store closed for hollidays and my order was not processed before they closed).

For dosing at night with peroxide, goal is said to double the day dose during the night and fraction that dose in several 2ml doses, following this protocol https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/peroxide-h2o2-dosing-for-parasites-in-reef-tank.725/

I wanted to post this last week but as I said, I stayed on the preview page... : My friend, who bought a pair of clowns the same day as me, has what seems to be ich in her tank too since she added them, although only the PBT is showing signs. Is it possible to confirm it is ich and not something else ?
-> today, number of ich has slightly growing on PBT (still possible to count them though, less than 20) and still no other fish sick. She doesn't have quarantine/hospital tank either. Would you recommand to invest in a trap + another tank to take the fish out in quarantine, or is it too risky / not worth it to stress him out when ichs are still not so many?

The powder blue in the picture has those "mucus plugs/cones" that we were discussing. These are a sign of some stressor. In some cases, that stressor just cannot be identified. In other cases, it can be from something in the water, copper or peroxides. Trouble is, marine ich can also be the stressor that causes these mucus plugs.

What I tell folks is to try and identify the stressor and remove it. Then, watch the fish VERY closely for smaller white spots that come and go and change location day to day - that is more likely to be ich. If the fish is determined to just have mucus plugs, and is not showing any other symptoms, I would say don't try to treat with anything.

How does the goby look now?

Your tank may well have flukes though. Can you get any other fluke medication than the Fluke Solve? If not, do you have a good local store that can confirm if that product is safe to use in a marine display?

Any time you see a "formula" for dosing peroxide in a display tank that gives a set, rigid value to add to treat a disease - it is wrong! The only time you can use a set dose of peroxide is in these two specific cases: 1) a high dose, peroxide dip, designed to remove gill parasites, or 2) very low dose tank additions (but that will not control parasites).

As I explained - dosing peroxide is wholly dependent on the level of oxidant remaining after the peroxide has reacted with any organics in an aquarium. The amount of organics is different in every tank. With continued additions, more and more of these organics are burned off, leaving more unreacted peroxide in the water, potentially reaching toxic levels. Using a peroxide low range test kit, you can adjust your dose, otherwise, you are just guessing.....


Jay

 

[Talistoria]

Thank you @Jay Hemdal for your answers and input on the downside of H2O2! I stopped the treatment after what you told me.
Powder blue of my friend still have some cones on him but it has not spread to other inhabitants (mostly angels and damsels) so for now she monitors and waits for things to evolve.

Sadly we do not have trustable reef LFS at less than 3 hours by car (the only one we had closed during covid and wasn't replaced), and the ones we contacted do not give advice on products they do not sell, so I still don't know if the "fluke solve" is truly reef safe.

The goby in my tank sadly didn't make it, I got my trap too late for him. I was able to get the lavender tang out of the tank though (he was the one still swiming in front of the pumps), but didn't make it in the hospital tank (was completely stressed when the trap closed, panicked and repetidly smashed himself into it trying to escape, he didn't leave the floor of the hospital tank afterward, died within 2 hours later...). Others are doing fine by now, no visible spots, no heavy breathing and they have usual feeding behavior/quantities, so I'm not so keen on stressing them by taking them out of the tank by now :/

I upgraded my UV while still waiting for the trap and the problem seems to have settle. But I know it is at best managed, so if things were to go downside again, now I have what I need at hand to trap and treat before it's too late.