Dedicated Tankless Water Heater

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Fish E

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Greetings! I've read numerous threads about implementing a hot water tank to heat a system. I've been toying with the idea of a dedicated tankless, one rated for high cycles like a Tagachi. As I understand it, a tankless is triggered by water flow such as the turning on of a faucet. In regard to an aquarium application, I've been pondering ideas to create that flow. I presume an electronic solenoid could be used or perhaps a recirculation pump. Obviously both of those present possible points of failure. So I'm not sure how to create a backup redundancy should one of those fail other than two of each but that could present other problems. I guess just regular heaters in the sump could be backup too. Any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated. Thanks!
 
What sized system are we talking about here? I assume that you aren't going to be running tank water through this and will use a coiled system filled with fresh water to transfer heat to the aquarium?

Lots of good information shared here....

 
I wouldn't run tank water through the heater because of the metal used in the heater.

No I wouldn't do that. I'm going to run it through a tube heat exchanger.
 
What sized system are we talking about here? I assume that you aren't going to be running tank water through this and will use a coiled system filled with fresh water to transfer heat to the aquarium?

Lots of good information shared here....


I've been through that thread, it's a great read, and helped me with a lot of the ideas. Most of the threads using water heaters are standard tank water heaters and not tankless. With a tankless I somehow need to trigger the system with water flow. That's what I'm trying to figure the best route on how to accomplish.

The system will be around 700 gallons total.
 
I've been through that thread, it's a great read, and helped me with a lot of the ideas. Most of the threads using water heaters are standard tank water heaters and not tankless. With a tankless I somehow need to trigger the system with water flow. That's what I'm trying to figure the best route on how to accomplish.

I would think a simple setup with regular pump like a mag drive that turned on via a temperature controller like an ink bird would work well enough. But I'm only guessing here, it might be worth starting a conversation with one of the members in that thread with there thoughts on it. I would think a tankless water heater would take much longer to heat up your tank than a tanked system though having to heat up the water in the line first before heat could be transferred into the sump
 
I would think a simple setup with regular pump like a mag drive that turned on via a temperature controller like an ink bird would work well enough. But I'm only guessing here, it might be worth starting a conversation with one of the members in that thread with there thoughts on it. I would think a tankless water heater would take much longer to heat up your tank than a tanked system though having to heat up the water in the line first before heat could be transferred into the sump

The mag pump is a great idea, I'm just figurine redundancy. I want two means.
A good point on the heating the water in the line, but wouldn't that be the case with a standard tank as well? When you turn on a faucet the line has to be purged of the cooler water before the heated arrives. Also the distance from the tankless to the sump will be less than 10 feet.
 
The mag pump is a great idea, I'm just figurine redundancy. I want two means.
A good point on the heating the water in the line, but wouldn't that be the case with a standard tank as well? When you turn on a faucet the line has to be purged of the cooler water before the heated arrives. Also the distance from the tankless to the sump will be less than 10 feet.

The main differences would be that with the tanked version the cold water in the line is immediately replaced with hot water from the tank and mixed with the hot water in the tank while circulating. Whereas the tankless water heater starts with cold water and has to heat the whole line up as it circulates, which might not be a huge deal but something to think about.
 
The main differences would be that with the tanked version the cold water in the line is immediately replaced with hot water from the tank and mixed with the hot water in the tank while circulating. Whereas the tankless water heater starts with cold water and has to heat the whole line up as it circulates, which might not be a huge deal but something to think about.

That's a good point. I'm going to have to account for that. I'll have to trigger the heater earlier to account for the time of transition. Might be tricky.
 
That's a good point. I'm going to have to account for that. I'll have to trigger the heater earlier to account for the time of transition. Might be tricky.

It might honestly be not a big deal atall I'm just bouncing ideas around to hopefully help you out a little bit :)
 
It might honestly be not a big deal atall I'm just bouncing ideas around to hopefully help you out a little bit :)

I understand but it's great food for thought. I appreciate it!
 
It might honestly be not a big deal atall I'm just bouncing ideas around to hopefully help you out a little bit :)
Wouldn’t the tube heat exchanger stay relatively close to the system temperature with the exception of the tubing connecting the tankless to the exchanger? I only ask as I am thinking about going down the same path with a future build as well. Redundancy could also be done with dual loops controlled by separate temperature controllers set to slightly different temps so you know only 1 would run at a time.
 
Redundancy could also be done with dual loops controlled by separate temperature controllers set to slightly different temps so you know only 1 would run at a time.

That's an interesting idea! Though I think most water heaters only have one outlet thus it would need to split into the two loops. That would then double the amount of water needed to raise the temp. Unless those two loops connected at the point of origin and at the heat exchanger. I'm not a plumbing expert so I'm just brainstorming :D
 
That's an interesting idea! Though I think most water heaters only have one outlet thus it would need to split into the two loops. That would then double the amount of water needed to raise the temp. Unless those two loops connected at the point of origin and at the heat exchanger. I'm not a plumbing expert so I'm just brainstorming :D
Yes it would double the water, not knowing what exchanger you are using I wouldn’t be able to help with merging the lines back in.
 
1) I'm assuming you're looking at a natural gas powered tankless heater because using an electric tankless heater would just increase your utility bill. Seems obvious, but I didn't see it in my skim of the thread so I wanted to point it out.
2) My parents' house has a tankless heater (Rheem). It turns on with flow rate, but also somehow regulates output temperature. IE with very cold input water and a very high flow rate it will run at full power and not achieve its target output temperature, but at lower flow rate/higher input temperature it will cut back the flame so that the output temperature stops going up. What this means for you is that it doesn't much matter how hot the return water from the tank is.
3) There are plenty of pumps you could use for this, and use that to trigger your on/off.
4) I suspect you'll want to operate with a reservoir like a trash can that you top off periodically, or with a big accumulator. If you totally seal the system and remove all air bubbles you'll have some pipe bursting pressure spikes when you warm it up.
5) Assuming you haven't already, I would put a lot of concern towards how you regulate it. I've seen a lot of cases where a poor control system cooked a tank. Too many times have I seen a temperature probe that fell out of the tank, stayed in but the ATO failed so it read air temperature, temperature probe in the display but heater in the sump and a failed return pump decoupled them, etc. Always a good idea, but more so as your heater gains the ability to cook the tank quickly rather than slowly.
6) Look into storage rules so that if you don't run the heaters all summer you don't end up with pinhole leaks in your heater. Some HXs have an upper period of time they want to be stagnant for. Hopefully that's covered for this application, but I've seen it in other HX situations so figured I'd mention it.
7) You may be able to cut the heater by cutting the power to it. This could be useful as you could cut the gas power before cutting the pump therefore not be constantly shutting down the system with the whole system hot. If you're only running the heater in the winter it won't matter as waste heat will warm your home, but if you plan to run a tank heater during parts of the year you are also running home A/C this would help.
8) Remember that insulating the tank (and using thin lids to cut down on evaporation) can make a huge difference in your heating (and chilling) needs. Holding temperature while evaporating a gallon of water per day requires adding 107 continuous watts of power. Evaporating 5 gpd is 535 watts continuously. Helpful in the summer if you need to chill the tank, but less so in the winter when it's an expensive way to add humidity to the air.
9) You could instead pull from your home's main hot water heater. You can get purpose built pumps designed to run hot water at pressure. From a failure perspective though I'd rather have a closed system at no real pressure get a leak than have a pressurized system with effectively infinite volume behind it spring a leak.
 
Many tankless heaters have a recirculation function built in - to keep warm water in the house pipes for that 'instant' hot water luxury. Perhaps that could be leveraged, but I'm not sure how. AFAIK it runs the pump and if the incoming water from the loop is below a certain temp it kicks on and heats it. You could set that temp, but then how to control it in relation to tank temp...
 
So have you made any progress on this? I just spoke with a local plumber today about doing this with my aquarium setup. We are looking at 2 options.
Option 1: use my current Rinnai tankless. If I do use that it will shorten my warranty period for the unit.
Option 2: Use a separate dedicated tankless like a Tagachi tankless that is designed for radiant floor loops. It would mount outside right next to the current Rinnai unit. It is a little more expensive, but I like this option.

I've attached a basic diagram of what I am planning on doing. The diagram doesn't show all the necessary plumbing parts, plus the plumber I spoke with said the recirculating pump needs to go on the other line of the domestic loop.
HWH-heat exchanger.png
 
I run my heating system with a standard hot water tank but the principals for controlling should remain the same even with a tank less water heater as long as it is activated by water flow. I utilize a RANCO temp controller to turn the re-circulation pump on and off for my heating loop. That controller is plugged into my APEX and was programmed to shut power off to the RANCO and re-circulation pump if an over-temp event occurs. Having dual temperature probes for this type of setup is important in case a temp probe fails. For a re-circulation pump I would not use a magdrive pump as they are not intended to be used with hot water supplies. I would go with a bronze or stainless steel re-circulation pump as the hot water circulating to the tank less heater should not be aquarium water. If you are making a closed loop of water with the tank less heater you must account for expansion and contraction in the lines and they make expansion tanks that can be plumbed into the loop which will allow water to expand and contract without putting additional pressure on the lines that might cause a leak.
 
Wouldn’t the tube heat exchanger stay relatively close to the system temperature with the exception of the tubing connecting the tankless to the exchanger? I only ask as I am thinking about going down the same path with a future build as well. Redundancy could also be done with dual loops controlled by separate temperature controllers set to slightly different temps so you know only 1 would run at a time.

Are those really expensive? I’m toying with this idea my self for a build of a 300+ gallon build.
 

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