Deep Sand Beds still a thing?

[seahorsemaster]

Are they still practicable? I was thinking about throwing one in my sump.

Do you have a DSB?

Is it worth placing one in the sump?

Right now I just run cheato- thinking of moving that to a reactor.

I have a 210g reef tank and a 90g seahorse tank, both with deep sand beds and also with macroalgae refugiums with mud. Both have been running for 12 years with no real problem. Do have sand sifting sea stars, snails, etc. Went with deep sand bed on the 210g because couldn't reach the bottom otherwise and wanted live pods for mandarin goby. Do 10% water change once/month.

Would recommend removing all fish first if need to relocate. Hired an 'expert' years ago to move 90g reef tank and they started removing rock first and killed everything but six line wrasse in tank.

 

[BZOFIQ]

I was actually surprised that they are widely discussed and almost solely used as THE method in fora across the pond; Poland specifically.

They use fine silica sand as to avoid "fusing" of aragonite type sand and about 6" deep with gentle but steady water flow over it being at least 6" high over the top of DSB. I have a link you can probably access via chrome to have them translated automatically. It addressed set up, type of animals that can be added, etc, etc.

DSB - Filtracja biologiczna w akwarium morskim

DSB to nie tylko filtracja biologiczna, ale i doskonałe źródło pokarmu dla korali. Jak założyć DSB, aby osiągnąć najlepszą wydajność takiego złoża?

reefhub.pl

 

[jda]

Most people have no idea what a DSB does, nor how to use one, aside from bad/wrong message board dogma. They can be a great addition if you know what you are doing. They can be terrible if you are a lazy and uninformed keeper, but this is the same as any other method. This was true when more people used them... they had no idea despite many, many publications and books written to help people with them.

First, they are not nutrient sinks, but they can mask bad husbandry from a hobbyist for a time and people think that they are "time bombs" when later they can no longer do the work that the hobbyist should have been doing. They are so good at their job that they give people a false sense of security with their lacking care for years. More on this in a minute...

You can clean them, but you have to go slow. Hydrogen sulfide is not an issue from a DSB.

If done right and left alone, they can really take nitrate down to NSW levels leaving just enough to drive the equilibrium forward with a level of about .1 to .3 of nitrate (or just about perfect for me).

If any "nutrients" fall into the sand, they are quickly consumed by microfauna or bacteria - most of the stuff in the sand is inert.

...so back to the inaccurate "time bomb" thing, there are a few things that you have to know. First, aragonite binds massive amounts of phosphate.... true with rock and sand. When you use an aragonite sand bed, it will absorb phosphate for years and keep your tank level really low and stable whilst it is doing this job. This can be 4-8 years, or so. The whole time the hobbyist thinks that P is no issue and does not understand what the big deal is because they are not even good with their husbandry or water changes and they have no P or N issues. Then, one day, the aragonite is "bound up" and the levels start to rise in the tank. The hobbyist, who has been successful for all these years, does not know that they themselves are the problem and thinks that the sand bed is now "leeching" P when it is in fact just not capable of doing the dirty work anymore. People online remember reading things about "time bombs" and the bad message persists.

How do you keep your sand bed from filling up with phosphate? You have an export mechanism early on, like normal water changes, a fuge or chaeto or even using media and chemicals, that keeps the sand acting as a reservoir for low quantities, but not getting filled up without any export.

Personally, I would never run a tank without 3-4 inches of sand. I like that is keeps the N low and acts as a buffer for P. I also do skim with many skimmers per tank, change water and run an effective fuge which keeps the sand from filling up. I have cucumbers that clean the sand, but every few years I do vacuum a small part of it to clean it out.

 

[brandon429]

JDA

is it fair to state that the leading article for DSB's, that one from Shimek, is lacking procedural care info

as i read it, from that article, set up a sandbed and you'll have worms and fascinating organisms to turn it over for you given time. I didnt read of one special care need in the home, or access guiding etc. it is written that dbs's reduce the harmful metals

That article had a major impact on how the public views DSB's in my opinion. I find it very hard for anyone to coach another person on how to replicate DSB success in an outbound manner. All DSB info it seems to me is solely from the authors care or oceanic studies but all data based on transmitting the idea consistently to others is where things differ. I know of no threads where an author remotely piloted the setup (describe all procedural and setup care over the web, logged in forums, they copy and apply the info on the other side of the world and report back) and then wrote from hindsight how others were able to apply or not apply the science/benefits as well.

 

[shred5]

Most people have no idea what a DSB does, nor how to use one, aside from bad/wrong message board dogma. They can be a great addition if you know what you are doing. They can be terrible if you are a lazy and uninformed keeper, but this is the same as any other method. This was true when more people used them... they had no idea despite many, many publications and books written to help people with them.

First, they are not nutrient sinks, but they can mask bad husbandry from a hobbyist for a time and people think that they are "time bombs" when later they can no longer do the work that the hobbyist should have been doing. They are so good at their job that they give people a false sense of security with their lacking care for years. More on this in a minute...

You can clean them, but you have to go slow. Hydrogen sulfide is not an issue from a DSB.

If done right and left alone, they can really take nitrate down to NSW levels leaving just enough to drive the equilibrium forward with a level of about .1 to .3 of nitrate (or just about perfect for me).

If any "nutrients" fall into the sand, they are quickly consumed by microfauna or bacteria - most of the stuff in the sand is inert.

...so back to the inaccurate "time bomb" thing, there are a few things that you have to know. First, aragonite binds massive amounts of phosphate.... true with rock and sand. When you use an aragonite sand bed, it will absorb phosphate for years and keep your tank level really low and stable whilst it is doing this job. This can be 4-8 years, or so. The whole time the hobbyist thinks that P is no issue and does not understand what the big deal is because they are not even good with their husbandry or water changes and they have no P or N issues. Then, one day, the aragonite is "bound up" and the levels start to rise in the tank. The hobbyist, who has been successful for all these years, does not know that they themselves are the problem and thinks that the sand bed is now "leeching" P when it is in fact just not capable of doing the dirty work anymore. People online remember reading things about "time bombs" and the bad message persists.

How do you keep your sand bed from filling up with phosphate? You have an export mechanism early on, like normal water changes, a fuge or chaeto or even using media and chemicals, that keeps the sand acting as a reservoir for low quantities, but not getting filled up without any export.

Personally, I would never run a tank without 3-4 inches of sand. I like that is keeps the N low and acts as a buffer for P. I also do skim with many skimmers per tank, change water and run an effective fuge which keeps the sand from filling up. I have cucumbers that clean the sand, but every few years I do vacuum a small part of it to clean it out.

Exactly..
All this they are nutrient sinks is rubbish. How many of these people just parroting what they hear have actually tried one. I had one for 15 years plus and known other that have gone over 20 years and may even still be going.

It all about how you maintain them by not letting bad stuff happen first.

In addition to what you said is keeping rock off the sand bed can help..
The stability a sand bed offers id done right is immense.
I have run both ways and Sandbed has been batter and more stable.

Everybody want this sterile environment now a days and wonders why they have nutrient issues and Dinos.

The only argument to me is sandbeds can be a pain in high flow environments.

 

[JoshH]

The only argument to me is sandbeds can be a pain in high flow environments.

Even this isn't much of an argument if you run a remote DSB Atleast IMO...

 

[Thales]

Everyone wants the recipe for the magic bullets, but there aren’t any.

 

[Hot2na]

When I talked to Dr Jean Jaubert at the 2018 MACNA he said his. Research still supports the use of a DSB. He does not recommend using a plenum. The only reason he ever had a plenum was that there was an existing undergravel filter in the tank he switched to DSB

You can just use 6" florida crushed coral directly on the bottom of the tank without plenum and get the same or similar result...I've tried it...but worried about it getting clogged with detritus over time...i like the plenum underneath...allows me to look and see whats going on under there. I would like to try a remote deep sand bed of 8-10 inches florida crushed coral in a separate tank -plumbed inline with the display tank. water would be pre filtered with something like and ocean clear pleated cartridge style filter ...to keep the RDSB from clogging over time.

 

[jda]

Even Dr. Ron and the like changed as the years went by. I will agree that past writings are kind of a moving target, but in the end, most of what they say is right if they hobbyist digs in a bit and figures out the rest and how it applies to them. Wet Web Media also changed over the years and is still very helpful if you can get over the format.

I will always run an aragonite sandbed preferably of mixed grain sizes... sugar is too small for me and the carib sea stuff is a bit too big, so I mix them if I can. I love the stability and that the sand will keep my N very low, but detectable, will buffer P at NSW levels where it is nearly impossible to raise or lower it without massive amount of media. Plus, I like the fauna that they house and create.

The stability, as mentioned before, is amazing.

For care, I just vacuum some of it every 3/4 years and don't do more than 20% of the visible/accessible region at once. ...so in year three or four, do 20% every three months until you get the whole exposed area. The conchs and cucumbers do really like to move into the vacuumed regions after a few days, so that tells me that there is something there for them to live off of. I like to do this to get the inert stuff out of the sand that seem to legitimately "gum up the works." This is where I think that Dr. Ron's first publications are lacking - even though a sand bed is not a nutrient sink, they can get full of sludge and mud that while doing nothing can also impede progress. Other than this inert "gunk" removal, the worms, conchs, cucumbers, etc. do a wonderful job for years and years.

I also like my sand bed to tell me when I am approaching too much flow. Fresh sand beds can move around with a fish fart, but once they get some bacteria on them and start to get established, they will not move with quite a bit of flow. If I am moving around sand, then I have too much flow for my tastes. Remember, that I believe that once you have competent flow, that more does not do anything for the tank.

 

[BZOFIQ]

The only argument to me is sandbeds can be a pain in high flow environments.

That is only an issue if there isn't a sufficient "layer" of water passing over the DSB. At 6-8" over the top of DSB in a standard width vessel it would take crazy amount of flow to move anything. Baffle design plays crucial role too.

 

[brandon429]

The definitive update to sandbed biology for 2019 could be earned from posters in this thread. From theory to application, outside the home.


Start a thread labeled something like "how to set up a functioning DSB in your display tank" and market the hound out of it in the new tank forum where many are armed with cash looking to replicate success

Take on twenty new builds, instruct them on what, when, how, and pics. Keep it running all in one thread, diagnostics etc. the rules that govern dsb biology distill quickly as patterns emerge.

*anything shy of that robs deep sandbedding of the verification it deserves. Articles are safe zone. Being masters of one tank, our own, isn't testing the methodology like a public works thread.

At the end of three years, article gold mined from such a collection. It's a no safe zone, expose science raw, test with noncompliant systems method. I've never seen deep sandbed verification done like that in reefing...vetting claims through public tanks and thread work, then make the article.

Have seen a writer assemble their own 10 tank comparisons study, still the opposite of what we need to see. The one set of data totally unmeasured is the simple transmissibility of the method to real world variations and settings. what can res publica do with a set of updated dsb rules?

 

[av8]

I recently got a tiger conch for it, he's pretty slow paced though. I've also been looking at brittle/serpent stars. How did you get bristle worms? I've been looking and it feels like they only exist on the internet... No one has them or offers them.

Bristle worms are hitch-hikers. They just show up from live rock.

 

[av8]

The definitive update to sandbed biology for 2019 could be earned from posters in this thread. From theory to application, outside the home.


Start a thread labeled something like "how to set up a functioning DSB in your display tank" and market the hound out of it in the new tank forum where many are armed with cash looking to replicate success

Take on twenty new builds, instruct them on what, when, how, and pics. Keep it running all in one thread, diagnostics etc. the rules that govern dsb biology distill quickly as patterns emerge.

*anything shy of that robs deep sandbedding of the verification it deserves. Articles are safe zone. Being masters of one tank, our own, isn't testing the methodology like a public works thread.

At the end of three years, article gold mined from such a collection. It's a no safe zone, expose science raw, test with noncompliant systems method. I've never seen deep sandbed verification done like that in reefing...vetting claims through public tanks and thread work, then make the article.

Have seen a writer assemble their own 10 tank comparisons study, still the opposite of what we need to see. The one set of data totally unmeasured is the simple transmissibility of the method to real world variations and settings. what can res publica do with a set of updated dsb rules?

Did I mention that the 10 gallon tank, that is also a deep sand bed, that the twenty nine year old clown started life in, is approaching 30+ years old, and is still functioning just fine? 1" plenum, two inches of crushed oyster shell, topped with one inch Fiji pink. One centimeter of half the tank is vacuumed out and immediately replaced every 6 to 12 months. Send me $10k and I'll do the science and publication ... otherwise, KISS.

 

[brandon429]

Na it doesn’t take anyone paying you, it takes trust in the method that it works well enough to stand up to live time scrutiny
just start a thread and advise em how to arrange and care for the bed such that they enjoy it after two years running

also, post a pic of the old sandbed

 

[jda]

Too few believe anything anymore unless BRS makes a video about it... at least the ones at any given time who are the most active.

I don't care enough to help some idiot who wants to argue with me and knows it all before they even have water in their tanks, but I will take the time to post on threads like this where people actually want to learn.

 

[Feet4Fish]

Agreed. I understand the angle BRS took when the compared sand beds to cat little boxes. As a significant portion of the customers are new or not as experienced aquarists maybe it is “safer” to pronounce the shortcomings of a sand bed. What is lost in translation is there aren’t short comings in sand but rather people’s understanding of sand bed design and husbandry. Sand is the nature’s most efficient filtration media!

in my opinion the marine hobby would be very confusing to start up as a new aquarist. There is so much information out there of all different degrees of validity. They get lost in the minutiae and struggle. For about ten of my fifteen years I was one of those people then many moments of clarity and conversations I finally saw the forest through the trees. The hobby became much more enjoyable!

 

[jda]

I get all kinds of nasty PMs when I point out that BRS gets as much wrong as they do right, but that is neither here nor there... they do have products to sell after all and some people don't want to see that just like some people don't want to see that the outcome of Andre the Giant and Hulk Hogan was determined long before they ever took the ring. I don't blame them nor have any venom, but like to point out that they area A source, not THE source.

In any case, everything is cyclical, so sand will probably be all the rage at one point in the future. They work too well to disappear.

 

[shred5]

Too few believe anything anymore unless BRS makes a video about it... at least the ones at any given time who are the most active.

I don't care enough to help some idiot who wants to argue with me and knows it all before they even have water in their tanks, but I will take the time to post on threads like this where people actually want to learn.

That is really sad because it is our experience that still helps others. I hear what you are saying and I just avoid certain threads now a days. I post allot less too over the years. Seems allot of the experienced people have stepped away from the forums and most post are from people that have joined R2R in the last two years or so. Seems allot have moved over from Social media.

I worry about the hobby. I think the fact there are no new books by people like Julian Sprung is hurting the hobby by not dispelling certain things in the hobby or providing guide lines for people to follow..

Fact is people believe the people on YouTube and some are really bad. Just because you make a video does not mean you know what you are doing. Some are a complete joke.

I think people need to realise is BRS does videos to move product. They are a retailer and distributor and are in business to make money.
I do not get how they can say everyone else ideas are anecdotal all the time. None of their test are long term and that should be everyone's goal for a long term reef. How can run a method a few months and then change to a different one and tell how it worked. Their videos are also their opinion...

Do not get me wrong there is allot of good info in BRS videos but people need to realise they are trying to sell you something. None are lab controlled or even scientific. BRS marketing is really good at getting people to believe stuff with out a doubt. The best marketing in the biz.


I was in a thread a few weeks ago trying to explain cyano.. And of coarse someone wants them to dump a chemical in their tank. Guess what he does? Any how this person believes the person that said He used this product three times to rid cyano.. Really if you learned how to get rid of it naturally you would not have it come back 3 times. It is becoming really sad. No wonder the average person does not last a few years anymore.


It is sad to me that allot of the people that have been in the hobby a long time are leaving the forums because they are tired of it all.. You try and teach someone how to take care of a problem naturally so they learn something and it does not come back. There are still some pretty experienced people on the forums with allot of knowledge especially on the fish side of the hobby. Just sad to see so many leaving or posting less.

I think the biggest competition to the forums like this is going to be private forums.

 

[jda]

There are still a LOT of people who know what they are doing, but they just do not post except to occasionally sell their corals and maybe on a super-specific issue like disease or something. If you ever get invited to a private forum, FB group, or the like, then do it... these are teeming with experts helping experts and you can learn so much (as well as have access to all of the best frags).

In any case, if if anybody is considering sand in a build, feel free to PM or link me and I will help if you want it. I think that it is a tremendous idea if you will just do maintenance in three or four years and if you have patience to wait through a few ugly months. You will receive more than you give with a sand bed.

There is a link in my signature to a tank that I started in May. It has the three legs to a strong table (sand, rock and light). It does have easy corals since they grow fast and I only have a year, but I document the ugly phases and they are over now and the tank is starting to get crystal clear and beautiful. There are photos of more difficult corals in my flickr album.

 

[shred5]

Even Dr. Ron and the like changed as the years went by. I will agree that past writings are kind of a moving target, but in the end, most of what they say is right if they hobbyist digs in a bit and figures out the rest and how it applies to them. Wet Web Media also changed over the years and is still very helpful if you can get over the format.

I will always run an aragonite sandbed preferably of mixed grain sizes... sugar is too small for me and the carib sea stuff is a bit too big, so I mix them if I can. I love the stability and that the sand will keep my N very low, but detectable, will buffer P at NSW levels where it is nearly impossible to raise or lower it without massive amount of media. Plus, I like the fauna that they house and create.

The stability, as mentioned before, is amazing.

For care, I just vacuum some of it every 3/4 years and don't do more than 20% of the visible/accessible region at once. ...so in year three or four, do 20% every three months until you get the whole exposed area. The conchs and cucumbers do really like to move into the vacuumed regions after a few days, so that tells me that there is something there for them to live off of. I like to do this to get the inert stuff out of the sand that seem to legitimately "gum up the works." This is where I think that Dr. Ron's first publications are lacking - even though a sand bed is not a nutrient sink, they can get full of sludge and mud that while doing nothing can also impede progress. Other than this inert "gunk" removal, the worms, conchs, cucumbers, etc. do a wonderful job for years and years.

I also like my sand bed to tell me when I am approaching too much flow. Fresh sand beds can move around with a fish fart, but once they get some bacteria on them and start to get established, they will not move with quite a bit of flow. If I am moving around sand, then I have too much flow for my tastes. Remember, that I believe that once you have competent flow, that more does not do anything for the tank.

DR Ron a old friend.
Picture of us maybe 18 years ago doing a tank tour in Min.
He could really drink beer.
I guess his wife's health is not good and I do not think his is anymore either.
I hear very little from him.